PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
6
Reference :-
EPILL CO. 885
| ו ן
24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO
28
28 December 1914.]
OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:
Mr. W. RICHARDS and Mr. A. HUGHES.
585. Of course this is only an estimate, and I do not think we need stick slavishly to these figures. It will not be more than 1. 108. Oh, no, it will not. (Mr. Hughes.) Because we had the broker in as we left. (Chairman.) I think we will leave it for you to take the best you can at the time.
(Mr. Erans.) There is one question about the value. If this ship has been appraised at the Prize Court she Duglit to insured for. I think.
(Mr. Roper.) She must be appraised under the Prize Rules, must she not?
(Chairman.) No.
(Mr. Tennyson.) Not necessarily, if there is no order for sale.
(Mr. Erana.) That figure may be altered; that is the only thing,
(Witness) (Mr. Richards.) That is the best guide we could have, is it not?
(Chairman.) The appraisement of some of the Colonial Courts is so extraordinary that I do not feel inclined to give it. They have appraised a ship about the same size as this at 90,0001. I am perfectly cortain But still there it is-there is the it is entirely wrong. appraisement.
(Mr. Roper.) They are probably taking the fancy values which are being paid now for ships.
(Chairman.) As long as we take a fair value for the ship I am quite content for insurance purposes.
(Witness) (Mr. Hughes.) It was stated here that we would have to cover ourselves for claims that owners might make. If the owners said "I have this ship insured for 75,000l.”
586. That is not this paricular ship because this is a condemned ship?--She was not condemned then.
(Mr. Tennyson.) No, we thought she would not be, but she has been.
587. (Chairman.) Now she is our property?—That When we had all these conver-
I did not understand. sations she was not your property.
588. That is right? Then why do you want to insure her at all? You do not insure Government property.
339. I think you are quite right ?-If she is Government property she is not insured.
(Mr. Tennyson.) She is not doing Government work. (Mr. Roper.) It is the prize fund; it is not quite Government property.
(Chairman.) What are we doing with other prize ships?
(Afr. Evans.) We have insured the "Furth."
Mr. Tennyson.) That was when she was unloading and in the river. We are insuring the Schneefels." but the Furth" We did not insure the "Furth.'
was being run by the Government at its own risk. I think perhaps if the Admiralty had been consulted rather more than they were about the "Furth" perhaps she would have been insured.
(Chairman.) I think unless the Government will say that they will cover the risk of this ship, she ought to be insured. It is not purely Government property. It is not like one of our own ships although for the time being the property is vested in us for certain other interests. That is really the position that we stand in.
(Mr. Evans.) And it is not being used for the Government service either.
(Chairman.) The Admiralty is the trustee. (Witness.) It is for Government service more or less. You have stopped the ships and stopped the merchants getting their goods.
(Mr. Evans.) The Government says, "We will stop them," and then as a matter of grace they say," We will help you."
(Witness) (Mr. Richards.) Shall we wait with regard to the insurance.
590. (Chairman.) No; you said 61,0001. I think, as your valuation?--Yes; it is quite an independent valuation; we have no earthly interest in it.
591. I think that will do ?-There is another one which may be reduced, namely, the supercargo matter. 592. What is the idea of having a supercargo?— (Mr. Hughes.) I think it was Mr. Richards' idea. I never had a supercargo in my life. (Mr. Richards.) I
+
[Continued.
had it in mind more particularly in the "Apolda" and the Hamm," where there were great complications between Australian and Java cargo, and I thought we might send him out in order to save expenses of over- stowage at destination. With 2,890 bills of lading it might pay to put a special man on even in the Birkenfela," but I do not think it is necessary. I think in the "Apolda" it might be but not in the "Birkenfels." (Mr Hughes.) No, not in the" Birkenfels." (Chairman.) Very well; we might reduce that. (Mr. Tennyson.) As a matter of fact are not we going simply to unload this and let the Government of Australia deal with it P
(Chairman. Yes, but it is cargo documented to one port being carried to another.
(Mr. Tennysm.) There will not be any Java cargó in the "Birkenfels.'
(Chairman.) No, that will be very simple. (Witness) (Mr. Hughes.) Yes, the only difficulty is they have 2,890 bills of lading.
matter for the 593. (Mr. Tennyson.) That is a Commonwealth Government and not for us, because they are going to see to that?—(Mr. Richards.) Are they going to pay the expenses too? They would want protection for the expenses.
594. (Mr. Tennyson.) They will get that out of the consignees, I understand, warehousing charges and that sort of thing?-If that is so we can take those expenses out of our estimate at the end. (Mr. Hughes.) I do not think we have any charges for that.
595. (Chairman.) We shall have to pay for the stevedoring ?-(Mr. Richards.) I do not think that is excessive at all. (Mr. Hughes.) You will have to leave a margin on the stevedoring.
596. Yes?-Mr. Richards.) I do not think that is far out.
597. There is one point I want to ask you. Do you know what the cost of docking at Cape Town is ?—Yes. there is a regular scale for it. (Mr. Hughes.) Is it not a Government dock? (Mr. Richards.) Yes, but there is a regular scale for it. It will probably be given in Lloyd's book.
(Mr. Roper.) I have a copy in my room; I will It is a year telephone for someone to bring it over. old but it will be near enough.
(Chairman) Yes. The point is this: these ships are very foul--they must be because they have been lying there for four or five months, and I believe it would pay to dock them, and have their bottoms cleaned, and send them along. We shall save the amount of the docking in the amount of coal that is Baved. (Mr. Richards.) And give them a coat of paint. (Chairman.) Yes. (Mr. Hughes.) We should do it in our case as shipowners.
598. Yes, I think we should do that and that will have to be allowed for P-(Mr. Richards.) Yes. We can get that very accurately.
599, (Mr. Hughes.) What about docking the "Birkenfels" with all that cargo --She has got her full dead weight on board with the exception of coals.
600. I would not like to say about that. That is one of the reasons why I asked you whether you could shore up (Mr. Richards.) I do not think they would with the whole cargo on board. They could leave her partly water-borne and scrape the sides, if that would Le any good.
601. You might inquire for me, will you. (Mr. Hughes.) Yes, I will inquire and give you an answer.
602. Of course you can do it by putting in extru shores, but that costs more, of course (Mr. Richards.) As far as my experience goes if they lay a regular platform or bed it is a very expensive operation, but if Bome of the cargo were discharged the extra shoring would not be very serious. I think with the whole cargo it would be very expensive; but not so expensive as disebarging the cargo.
603. If there is any further expense it would not be worth doing?-No. Would it be any good to let the water partially out and scrape her sides.
604. No, I do not think that is worth it P-So that if there is any substantial quantity of cargo to be discharged, that goes.
28 December 1914.]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. W. RICHARDS and Mr. A. HUGHES.
605. Quite. You might also ask your Marine Superintendent if he can suggest any way of cleaning her bottom without docking Mr. Hughes.) Yes, I will ask him.
606. For instance you might ask him if it is worth while to employ divera. It might be worth while to employ divers to clean the screw if it is foul, because there you take friction off the engines Yes.
(Chairman) Are there any other points? (Mr. Holt.) Do not you think that the time occupied is excessive?
607. (Chairman.) Yes, I did. It was a question of the number of daye in harbour. Why should we require six days, for instance, at Fremantle-at all these porta in fact P--(Mr. Richards.) That is based on what other ships in the line have taken for approximately that quantity of cargo. (Mr. Hughes.) I think Mr. Richards got them all out from our books. I am not prepared to justify them. He has taken a margin.
608. Naturally. Is the discharge so very slow there --At Fremantle it is pretty bad. (Mr. Richards.) It varies very much according to what ships are there and what labour you can get. This is what we thought Was a fair estimate. In individual items it might appear excessive but I should not be suprised if they turned out under the mark. It is all a question of getting labour. They are as nearly as possible what we can any honestly is a fair estimate, all things considered. Of course they are open to criticism. (Mr. Hughes.) Since the war our ships have moved very much slower out in the colonies than before.
609. Through lack of labour?—Yes; and over here we do not move at all. (Mr. Richards.) Of course the 30 days will come out for sending the men to Cape Town, and then bringing them home. That makes an immense difference.
(Mr. Evans.) Is it necessary to insure against war risks?
(Chairman.) No.
(Mr. Beans.) I was thinking that will make a difference.
610. (Chairman.) I think you can take the war risks out That makes a great difference of course.
(Mr. Holt.) Then there is the compensation under the protection and indemnity risks.
you
611. (Chairman.) That makes a substantial differ- a very substantial ence in the figures - Yes,
lifference. (Mr. Hughes.) Now we will tell about the additions. (Mr. Richards.) First of all I saw Mr. Holt about it and he mentioned that the "Apolda" cannot take the whole of the "Hamm cargo. I had not provided for that in my estimates. I do not know what effect it would have exactly. Nobody seemed to have any knowledge of what the Butavia cargo on board the Apolda" consista of.
612. We have the weight or the dimensions of it? -The manifest was missing of the Batavia cargo.
(Mr. Tennyson.) There was a mistake in our infor- mation which was afterwards corrected.
613. (Chairman.) There is the Java cargo 1091 by weight and 500 by measurement in the "Apolda "? That is rather a large proportion. Is that to go on to Australia in her.
614. No; it depends entirely on how it is stowed. If we can get at it we should like to take that out at Cape Town, and leave it at Cape Town, and fill up that space with the cargo from Australia out of the "Humm" Then the "Apolda" will go on with Australian cargo only?
615. Yes? And then you will decide what will be done with the "Hamm."
616. If we could fix it up we might send the "Hamm" perhaps to Java with the Java cargo, but- that has not been decided in any way yet?-Shall I make an estimate of the expense of taking out the Java cargo of the "Apolda "at Cape Town ?
(Chairman.) We have asked if we could get it out, I
think.
(Mr. Tennyson.) Yes. We have not heard definitely. Shall we deal with the Birkenfels" first?
617. (Chairman.) Yes, I think we had better finish her off first. Have you any additious for her -These
[Continued.
29
figures were exclusive of outstanding liabilities for port dues and charges.
618. Obviously ?-The next thing they wero ex- clusive of any expenses incidental to the necessary repairs and outfit, other than provisions and stores.
619. Yes?--They were also exclusive of any extra expenses consequent on the "Apolda" not being ablo to take all the Hamm" Australian cargo.
620. Confining ourselves to the "Birkenfels," is that all? There were some charges by us, charges of adjustment. They would not be serious. Our charges would be very small if it is merely a case of collecting on the basis of freight, but if it is on values, on deposit. and tracing out the interests and so on it would be considerable, because you cannot deal with 2,800 interests without considerable expense.
621. With regard to that I do not think there will be any expenses for you in connection with the collec- tion, because the proposal is to take this cargo over to Australia, and to discharge it into the Government warehouses, and the Government will collect against the bills of lading -I see. There must be some husis on which to collect. If they collect on the basis of freight or freight with an addition or a deduction, as the case may be, it will be quite a simple matter; but if it is collected on the basis of values then it is almost inseparable from some expense, because they have to collect the values and take a deposit in the first instance, and that cannot be done without some expense. Have you decided us to that?
622. No. I do not think we have gone into the question of the basis of collection?-The simplest plan would be, if possible, to agree to a percentage of the freight and then they have all the materials for collecting straight away, and can settle the thing straight out without any deposit or bother at all. If that is at all feasible it is by far the most businesslike
course.
623. I agree with you. How can we get at it?—If we can agree certain figures we can easily reduce them to a relation to the original freight.
624. The original freight paid or payable appears Birkenfels." on the manifest ?—Yes, in the case of the
Of course we have no idea of the original freight in the case of the "Apolda" and the" Hamm." (Mr. Hugher.) We know the freight in the "Birkenfels."
625. Confining ourselves to the " Birkenfels "we can get at it on that basis (Mr. Richards.) But I think we can easily do so if we can agree upon a figure before- hand, which we ought to have no difficulty in doing. Then the Government have all the materials at hand for doing that. That is quite a different matter from taking an average and all that. That is a serious business when you haven number of interests. They have to make a proportion and then to make a settlement, and that is a tremendous charge with such a number of interests. (Mr. Hughes.) You will find a man who has a ton of nails in the "Apolda " will have to pay twice as much for that ton of nails as if he had them in the "Birkenfels," for this reason that the Birkenfels" had a good freight and the" Apolda "had a bad one. If I have a ton of nails out of the "Birkenfels" 1 would have to pay a sovereign for it, and the man who had a ton of nails in the "Apolda" would have to pay two sovereigna. (Mr. Richards.) These figures do not allow anything for contingienees or the working profit of Mr. Hughes' firm. (Mr. Hughes.) That is a detail. (Mr. Richards.) They do not allow for any expenses incidental to forwarding from destination of the ship to ports of destination which ought to be charged in relation to the freight to the particular interest.
626. That is especially where the freight is paid on a through bill of lading --- Yea, through to other ports, Ballarat and all those places. Ordinarily the ship- owners pay that.
627. Is not this the point that all that we propose to do is to land this cargo at the terminal port in Australia to which the cargo would have gone in the ordinary course of the voyage ?—You.
628. Further forwarding must be at the charge of the consignee. We must let the Ballarat man sen for his own cargo!-(Mr. Hughes.) Yes. (Mr. Richards). That is what it amounts to. I was rather working on
D 3