CO885-24 — Page 336

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

PREETC.O. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

17 December 1914.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. L. HUTH WALTERS.

start was that the ship should be allowed to go on, because after all the Prize Court does not want to see the wool or the hides; they only want the documents and the titles ?

535. Yes P--Egypt is no place to dispose of a large lot of wool and hides, and we want it to come on here,

336. What you can do is this: you can give bail to the court for the value of the wool and the wool can then be released against that bail?--I see; that bail would be a guarantee ?

(Chairman.) Yes, a guarantee.

(Mr. Malkin.) It is a bond. It does not involve payment into court.

(Chairman.) That remains in court in place of the wool ?

(Witness.) Yes,

537. You could arrange for that, I should think, at once, could you not? We could arrange it at once, yes. Had we better do that straight away before we know everybody has agreed to it?

538. However you work your cargo you will not get it without it? That is quite true. I believe the greater part of our stuff has been released.

539. Then it is quite simple ?—And that is why they say it is being discharged. He has got the release of 1,338 bales, I think, out of that.

340. That seems to me to be quite a simple case. You have only to arrange to give a bond for what is not released, and as far as you are concerned the whole thing is quite simple ?—Yes.

341. Then of course it remains to be seen--I cannot tell you at the present moment because I do not know-if there is any enemy cargo on board that ship. There probably is?—I do not know whether it has been quite decided about enemy cargo. know that there is any cargo in which people in London are not interested either as bankers or somehow.

I do not

542. Because they happen to be interested in a cargo it does not follow that it is not enemy cargo P-I mean the question whether they are entitled to claim it. The stuff we have got discharged already we are financing for French and Belgian accounts, but there is one lot of wool, a small parcel, which we have financed for a German account, and though we maintain we have as good a right to that as to the uther, that has to be decided yet.

543. I do not think you will find the court will

■gree to that?--That is rather a serious question which has to be discussed some time or other.

544. Those are questions which need not be discussed now provided you are willing to give a bond against that Yea, we are.

54.5. That is to say you consider your title is suffi- ciently goo i to justify you?—Yes. There is one thing we said in our letter which was not quite correct. We referred to the urgency of the necessity of getting that wool to Loudon. As a matter of fact we wrote that in the belief that it was partly New Zealand wool, which would be cross-bred, and therefore it would be of value for War Office purposes.

546. We want cross-breds ?—Yes, but this is marino mostly, unfortunately. As a matter of fact the value since the steamer laid up there has gone down about 20 or 25 per cent. If she had come straight on she

[Continued.

would have met the October sales. Since the October sales they have fallen 25 per cent. and there is no market for them; so that from the national point of view it is not of such great importance as we thought it was.

547. It is much better for you to realise your caryo rather than keep it lying there ?--Yes, we would rather have it home.

(Chairman.) I think that is all we can do at the We had better telegraph out and present moment.

get particulars.

(Mr. Malkin) Yes, and stop the discharge.

548. (Chairman.) Yes. Then if you will do your best to get into touch with the other consignees and come to an agreement, I think the simplest way would be to have a meeting, and for the consignees to agree on a repre sentative who will carry the business through for them? -Yes, quite.

549. Then we only have to deal with one person ? - Yes. You yourselves do not know of any other representative of anybody else interested at all.

550. This is the first application we have had with regard to this ship and we have not taken any steps to find out exactly --It looks rather as if there might be a lot of enemy cargo there which was not being dealt within which Londou is not interested.

551. Of course, that may complicate things P-Yes, but even then I suppose the Crown would be willing that the wool should go on to London? It would find readier sale here.

552. Yes, I do not think we want to stop it there, but there is the difficulty of how to deal with enemy cargo: that is the only question, but still I dare siy that can be arranged." Anyhow, we can do nothing until we know that you are willing to give a bond ?- Í understand.

553. At any rate that the London representatives of people interested in the cargo are willing to agree to the terms I have stated ?—Yes.

554 (Mr. Roper.) Have you been in communication at all with the London Chamber of Commerce about this P-No.

Mr. Roper.) The London Chamber of Commerce have been interesting themselves in these ships.

(Mr. Malkin.) They did not mention this one. (Witness.) I think they were interested more in the out-going ships,

(Mr. Malkin.) There were two of each, in-going aud out-going.

(Chairman.) Mr. Dick at the Chamber of Commerce would give you information as to what has been done. and would give any assistance possible.

555. (Mr. Malkin.) I would like to have a note of the cargo in which you are interested?--Yes, certainly. 556. Can you give me the number of bales ?—Yes, I can give you the number of balos and refer you to our agent there, the man who is in communication with us.

I think the court has been given the con- signees' names, so it will recognise them :-

"Annaberg":-

484 balce of wool-Eugene Gosset & Co.

251

"

251

11

"

565

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172

•

"

The witness withdrew.

و.

La Lamiere.

Wenz & Co.

Kurth-Wayhmann & Co.

Dohnert Muller Schmidt.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Monday, 28th December 1914.

Evidence taken at the Eleventh Meeting.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

VICE-ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.I.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).

Mr. W. J. Evang. Mr. T. H. HOLT.

Mr. G. ROPEE,

Mr. C. B. TENNYSON. Mr. L. D. WAKELY.

27

Mr. R. A. WISHMAN (Secretary).

Mr. WILLIAM RICHARDS and Mr. ALLAN HUGHES atten·led.

557. (Chairman.) I am going to suggest to you that we might reduce your figures. First of all we can take out the insurance of the cargo. We have a telegram from Australia to say that the consignees will look after their own insurance?-(Mr. Richards.) That insurance consisted of two things: one was possible liability, and the other was on the cargo itself in regard to unclaimed or enemy cargo. I thought you said you wanted the risk on the unclaimed or enemy cargo covered: is that so.

358. Yes, that all goes. You have quoted it as one sum P-Yea, we averaged it.

559. But the whole of the insurance of the cargo goes out; that takes out 2,000l. r—Yes.

560 Then with regard to the crew it seems to the Committee that the crew is rather large. We do not want to run the ship as if she were running on a time-table ?-(Mr. Hughes) What crew have we given?

561. You have given her 45 men and 10 officers ? --You cannot do with less than that.

562. Why not?-I do not think so. All these ships of that size come very near to 50 men. They just squeeze under 30 so as to keep out of the Marconi business in America. We may save one or two but it would not be much of a saving. These are what we carry in our own ships.

563. You have a master, four deck officers, and five engineers. I should think that for this journey a master and three deck officers are ample. You are not running at high speed. She ought to go about 10 knots, not more?-We have taken a ship of out own of 10 knots--take the "Sussex

or any of those ships. However, I dare say you are right there.

564. I think so?-It would not be much. 565. No, but still when you come to save things here and save things there it counts up in the aggregate!— Yes, I agree; but I always reckon these ships have crews of about 50,

566. I am rather inclined to take the crew down because you will have nothing to do; it is not like a ship running on the regular lines ?-Quite so.

587. Then four engineers ought to be sufficient, head and three othera P-Yes.

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568. And the crew 40 men instead of 45; that will be quite enough -That is us little as you can have, I think.

589. Oh, yes; I quite agree that is cutting it down to the minimum. That makes a reduction of 7 all told, does it not (Mr. Richards.) Yes.

570. That will, of course, reduce the corresponding expenses pro rata right through ?—Yes, certainly.

571. Now, we have had information from the Cape that we can get officers and crew there without any difficulty. Of course we should have to send out the master and probably the first officer and chief engineer and those sort of people, but we asked the Salvage Association to see if they could find out for us, because they are accustomed to that sort of work, and we have had a reply to say that officers and crew could be obtained at the Cape without difficulty P-At these rates of wages too? Because the Colonial rates are different to the rates here.

372. Will the extra rates eat up the saving in taking the crew out -Oh, no, I should think so. (Mr. Hughes,) I should think you would probably have to pay-I

am talking without knowing anything about it-21. or 37. a month more out there than you would here for each man. If you took them at Sydney or Melbourne I I think you would pay 77. or 81.

573. This is Cape Town?--I know, but I think the same thing would happen there.

574. (Mr. Tennyson.) We are also told it would not be necessary to arrange to bring a crew from Cape Town back; we could discharge them in Australia ?— (Mr. Richards.) That makes a great difference. Could we get any idea of the wages.

575. (Chairman.) Oh, yes; we could get that fo you ?-Mr Hughes.) That will make a great difference.

576. I do not think we can cut out anything else except perhaps the cost of the insurance on the hall. We are putting down the hull at 75,0001. Do you think that is a fair price?-It is a very full price. (Mr. Richards.) My expert man valued the ship at 61,000, (Mr. Hughes.) I should say the Birkenfels " cost about 55,000.

577. That is what I should have thought? That is when she was new. (Mr. Richards.) The "Apolda " my man valued at 36,000l. and the "Birkenfels " at 61,000/ This is the valuation; I have it here. That is the best thing they can do. Here is the other one. In increasing those figures I rather gathered from the last interview that you wanted to be very much on the safe side.

(Chairman.) As long as we cover the fair value of the ship, I think that is all that is necessary.

578. (Mr. Evans.) I think so. I do not think you want anything more ?-(Mr. Richards.) That makes a very great reduction.

(Mr. Tennyson.) Anyhow, with regard to the ** Birkenfels "she is condemned. There are no possible claims.

579. (Chairman.) That is so ?-(Mr. Richards.) Can we put that down at these valuations—“Birkenfels," 61,000Z.; Apolda, " 36,0001. P

580. Yes ---Then with regard to the rates, I have seen the brokers to-day about that because things have changed. The rate they had in mind originally was a little more, in fact, 17. 10a, at that time, for these marine risks. He says be does not know if the underwriter would expect him to stand by the quotation. There is a system where a man quotes, and whether it goes up or down he is understood to stand by it whatever the result may be. There is a question of honour about it. I have no doubt there will be no difficulty about it. (Mr. Hughes.) I could not understand where he (Mr. Richards.) The war risks got the 1. 10. from. were 11. and they are now down to 15r. I think we could get that reduction if you say we unght to have it. 581. It would bring it down to 11. 5. again The first one should have been 1. 10s. It looks as though it is about right.

382. (Mr. Roper.) For how long is this?-For the voyage, for all risks.

583. If the voyage is going to be changed does that affect the rates ---This is only to Australia.

584. (Chairman,) Yes, this is only to Australia P— (Mr. Hughes.) I do not know where he got 1. 10. from. He could not have told us that if we put down 11. 5. (Mr. Richards.) It might be possible to do better.

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