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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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mmimmi mC.O. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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28 December 1914.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE :

Mr. W. RICHARDS and Mr. A. HUGHES.

the ordinary basis of the representative of the ship forwarding.

629. Yes, but I do not think we want to do that here; we merely want to take this stuff and put it in a position where the owner of the cargo, wherever he That is all? may be in Australia, can get it easily. --Yes. (Mr. Hughes.) He would be very thankful for that.

630. Oh, yes?-(Mr. Richards). The only other material thing is any cargo claims over 201, I have provided a small sum here, a little over 100%, which is not a big thing for such a cargo. It is hoped that the insurance of the Protection and Indemnity Association will cover all other claims, but it is difficult to say that it will do so. There are so many contingencies in handling a cargo like this, that it is quite conceivable they may not be covered.

631. (Mr. Evans.) What claims have you in your mind?-For shortage, pillage, and so on.

632. We are proposing to put a clause into the contract that the consignees must accept the cargo as it is delivered?—(Mr. Hughes.) Supposing it is not there at all? Supposing it is pillaged? We have 3001. or 4001. of pillage in every ship regularly. Mr. Richards.) Ob, yes, that is a regular thing. They always make allowance for pillage. They are very often pillaged before they start. (Mr. Hughes.) They are pillaged before they get down to the docks, they on board are pillaged in the docks, they are pillaged the ship, and they are pillaged in discharging.

633. You are giving your people a very bad reputa- tion, I must say ?-We cannot stop it. (Mr. Richards.) If so we Shall we say no allowance for cargo claims?

At present I have can do away with the insurance. put down 1101., for cargo claims, and these other claims might come to all sorts of things. (Mr. Hughes.) Suppose you break a casting, who is going to pay for that. (Mr. Richards.) It does not arise so much in It is sure to arise there. this cargo as in the others.

If you can say that no cargo claims will be paid, and that they must take it as it comes, it will be covered by the Protection and Indemnity Association.

634. What have you allowed for that? 4107, is it not-For the protection and indemnity risks, yes. Then club calls is part of the cost. You have to pay the first item of entry, and the second is the average of the club calls. I have allowed 410. If there are to be no cargo claims to be paid that 4101. could come out.

635. It is not a very large item?-No, but it would take the risk away a good deal if the Govern ment says that no cargo claims are to be paid. There will be no risk at all. (Mr. Hughes.) I think you will find a difficulty.

636. That is exactly what I am thinking about? ~(Mr. Richards.) If you once admit liability you can never tell what you are in for. People bring an action against you for the condition of the cargo, and say that it is due to this, that, or the other, which it may or may not be.

637. In the case of the Schneefels" it is in the contract that we admit no liability-It will be splendid if we get that in the case of the Birkenfels."

638. (Mr. Tennyson.) In the case of the "Schneefels" we have an agreement with the representatives of the cargo owners, and they indemnify us. That is a In this case we could probably deal different matter.

with all claims where the cargo was in fact delivered by taking an indemnity when we delivered the cargo, but if the cargo were pillaged there is a difficulty in getting the indemnity from the owner?-(Mr. Hughes.) It will be pillaged.

639. (Mr. Evans.) I think it is rather better to leave that in, because it is better to deal with it through an insurance firm than to have claims against the Government ?-(Mr. Richards.) The Protection and Indemnity Association do pay pillages less than 401., I think. The only other thing is serious claims such as milk going bad. If any claim is recognised you cannot prevent them bringing an action or making themselves very disagreeable,

cover ourselves 640, (Chairman.) How there ?--It could be done by insurance or under an with the Protection and Indemnity arrangement

can

we

[Continued.

Association, (Mr. Hughes.) I understood there was a quantity of Nestle's milk on board.

(Mr. Tennyson.) Yes, 7,000l. worth, they say. 641. (Chairman.) I should say that has all gone board the bad!--(Mr. Hughes.) That must be "Apolds."

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42 (Mr. Tennyson.) I have forgotten which it is, but I think it is the Apolda "P---(Mr. Richards.) They may say it ought to have been forwarded long ngo, and if it had been there would have been a liability, and they make something out of that. I do not think they would make much of a show, but there it is; it is a risk.

(Chairman.) Of course, you must remember they have no claim; they can have no claim against the Government because they have to take the risk of the damage being done through the action of the belligerent, and accept it. They can insure against it if they like. and cover that part of the war risk, but they have no real claim, as far as I understand it, against the Govern. ment for any damage caused by the acts of the Government through an act of war.

643. (Mr. Tennyson.) Anyhow there would be no right against the Crown because of an act of that kind. They have to put up with it, unless there is a contract, For instance, supposing we make an agreement with the cargo owner to take this stuff across, then they might have a claim against the Government in respect of any damage done during the course of that voyage, but they could not have any claim against the Govern ment for negligence in not sending the cargo on, or for detaining the cargo, irrespective of some con- tractual liability. It would be an action in tort, I think. They might have an action against Mr. Hughes. possibly P-(Mr. Richards.) What I rather had in mind was dealing with claims which may have arisen before the seizure or detention or whatever it is. If the cargo is to be carried on the terms of the original billa of Lading I should like to define what the position is with regard to any claims which may be made arising on the It is rather a bills of lading before the transfer. substantial item, or might become rather a substantial item or might fizzle out, with nothing in it.

(Chairman) I should say there was no claim what- ever to be made on that head.

644. (Mr. Tennyson.) I do not think there can be any claim. There would be no claim on the old bill of lading because that contract would be at an end?— (Mr. Hughes.) The man would be in the same position as if the ship had been sunk by a Britisher.

645. (Chairman.) The only way that I can see in which he might get something would be out of his war risk, if he is insured P-Mr. Richards.) There would not be much chance of getting anything there, I think. Such things as loss due to delay are not usually covered by war risk insurance.

648. (Mr. Holt.) If he would not take delivery because he said it was valueless that would put your percentages all wrong-if the man said he knew it was wrong If it is done by percentage it would affect the percentage to a certain extent though not very greatly in view of the large value of ship and cargo. If we go on the basis of tonnage and freight it would leave a difficulty in collecting, certainly. If he will not take delivery and it is stuff which is valueless or may be valueless to other people then there is difficulty; the proportion applicable to that could not be collected.

647. (Mr. Tennyson.) It might happen with regard to this Nestle's milk, and probably will !-Yes.

(Mr. Tennyson.) There is 7,0001. or 8,000l. worth

of it.

648. (Chairman.) What we can perfectly well do there is this. Of Neatle's Milk there is probably one consignment ?--(Mr. Hughes.) I should not think that is certain at all. I should think more likely there are several bills of lading. (Mr. Richards.) If you have not the percentage adjustable there in a difficulty. (Mr. Hughes.) It seems to me that if the Government are going to receive this cargo out there, and take the matter in hand, it is quite a different thing to our taking it in hand; they can say that no claims shall be paid, and there is an end of it. You could say "You "are very lucky to get your goods at all, and no claims

28 December 1914.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. W. RICHARDS and Mr. A. HUGHES.

will be paid." Of coure, we could not take up an attitude of that sort, but you could, quite easily.

649. I think that is the best way of dealing with it-that the Government takes the whole thing over and says: There is what purports to be your cargo, "This and you must take it as it stands "P-Yes,

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cargo will be discharged and no claims of any sort will be paid either for shortages or anything else." That is the position I should take up if I were the Government. (Mr. Richards.) That is fair, too.

650. (Chairman.) I think so?—The only difficulty to get round in that difficulty about people not taking delivery on the ground of its being valueless, or saying that it is valueless.

651. If the cargo is discharged from the Govern- ment warehouses and the Government make themselves responsible for the cargo, I do not see that that will arise P-No; if they will pay freight it will not matter to Mr. Hughes.

652. We shall have to get an indemnity from the Colonial Government as to the total amount that has to be paid-Would not they simply pay it, and then collect what they can.

(Chairman.) That is the position that I think we shall have to try to work them into.

653. (Mr. Tennyson.) We can ask them anyhow P→→→ (Mr. Hughes.) I should strongly recommend you to do that to say that no claims will be paid of any sort. 654. It will come out to this, will it not that Mr. Richards will now give us a revised estimate of the whole cost; that we will telegraph out to the Australian Governureu: to say that the ship can be moved for so much money, and ask them if they are willing to guarantee us that money; if so we will move her: that the cargo will be discharged into the ware houses at the respective ports, and that the Colonial Government will from that moment take over all responsibility for the cargo and repay themselves for the money that they have advanced to us out of the freight -(Mr. Hughes.) A percentage on the freight. (Mr. Richards.) That is quite practicable.

655. (Mr. Tennyson.) "All the freight is paid already in advance, is it not P--On the "Birkenfels, yes.

656. (Chairman.) Very well. Then will you let us have a revised estimate Yes. (Mr. Hughes.) On the principle of "no claims.”

657. (Mr. Roper.) If there is perishable cargo need we put ourselves to the expense of carrying that? There will be no charges if it is put in a warehouse. for instance ? Of course if there was perishable cargo and you want to put other cargo in, that is another matter, but if it did not cost you anything to take the perishable cargo I should carry it.

858. Let the Australian Government and the con- signee fight that out. We do not want to mix ourselves up with that?-You would put yourself in a very awkward position otherwise. Besides, you do not know what is perishable and what is not. (Mr. Richards.) On the basis of the telegram will it not be necessary to find out what the port dues are at Capetown.

(Mr. Roper.) I have here the port dues at Cape- town, if you can form an estimate.

659. (Chairman.) We have a sort of estimate but we shall have to try to cut them down. They are very high at the present moment. What we will do in this: we will arrange the port dues ?—(Mr. Hughes You will pay them?

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060. Yes; and add them to the other in making up the final estimate!-(Mr. Richards.) That would include any expenses of the Prize Court?

661. Yes; we do not want you to bother about those. Leave all that to us. We will do that. Your part of the business is simply the actual moving of the ship --(Mr. Hughes.) Simply putting the crow bourd, and insuring the ship for 81,0001, and buying the coals and any provisions there may be wanted.

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662. Yes-(Mr. Richarda.) You will do the repairs and outfitting, other than the stores ?

663. Yes. Then you will have to put down some. thing for fees P--(Mr. Hughes.) There will have to be something. (Mr. Richards.) There is an agency fee included, 7501., but it must come out if the Government are going to do the whole thing.

[Continued.

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634. You will want the agency fee because your agents in the various ports will have to deal with the ship and with the cargo, and make arrangements for landing the cargo and sending the ship on! (Mr. Hughes.) We said 5 per cent. on the freight. We should have to pay those people in advance.

able Mr. Richards may be

to arrange that. (Mr. Richards.) Then that is the whole of the " Birken. fels." Are you going to do the" Apolda "?

665. Yes. Now we will deal with the "Apolda." An far as the expenses of the crew and all that is concerned. the ** Apolda" will be reduced in the same way? (Mr. Hughes.) The only additional thing is taking some cargo out and putting other cargo in.

606. That depends upon whether we can get at the We have not had an answer yet, cargo to deal with it. and therefore I am a little doubtful as to whether we can get ou very much further till we do?-Suppose we do the Birkenfels" first and then send the "Apolda " in, but leave these items out for you to fill in-yourselves? 667. I think that will be the best way ?-We cannot

put in those items, but we will send the Admiral in an account of this sort, headed " Apolds" with these lines left out which you can fill in yourself.

(Chairman.) We have no answer to that telegram about the cargo we sent a fortnight ago, I think.

(Mr. Tennyson.) We have this: "Birkenfela' unable to take any more cargo." We asked them that. "The Apolda is found to have 1,620 packages, not tous, to ports in Australia."

668. (Chairman.) That makes a very considerable difference?--(Mr. Richards.) That is an difference.

enormous

(Mr. Tennyson.) It was a mistake in our original telegram.

669. (Chairman.) 1,600 packages is nothing at all. Then I imagine that they probably could get at that? -(Mr. Hughes.) I should like to know what amount of draught, after she has got her coals, the "Apolda " has at the present moment, and what space she has; also what amount of space and what amount of cargo there is in the Hamm" which we want to put in the "Apolda."

870. If the Apolds" is now nearly full?—I do not think she is, or anything like it.

671. She has just over 4,000 tons in her?-That is not much.

672. The ** Apolda " is 4,000 tons gross P→ (Mr. Richards.) 6,006 weight of measurement we have. (Mr. Hughes.) I should not think that was anything like her limit.

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673. (Mr. Tennyson.) We have here "Apolda ' would have space for about 1,200 tons of Australia" cargo: Haum" has 2,100 tons for Australia and 4.119 for ports beyond, which will leave 900 tons for Australia and all cargo for ports beyond unprovided for"?-Mr. Hughes.) What are you going to do with the balance of the Hamm's "cargo for Australia? We shall have to send a steamer in there to pick it up.

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674. (Mr Tennyson.) We have no particular reason for wishing to keep the " Hamm "at Capetown?---The dmiralty have taken up all our ships, so they can put one in easily.

675. (Chairman.) Do you want ships? We are very short of ships.

of these ?- 676. You had better hire some (Mr. Hughes.) There is 1,850 tons of Australian cargo in the Hamm" according to this. What space has the "Apolda "got?

(Mr. Tennyson.) 1,200.

(Chairman.) I have not bothered much about the Hamm" and the "Apolda" up to the present becluse we want to get the" Birkenfels "away. There will be a certain amount of difficulty with the Hamm" and the Apolda" with regard to the German cargo, and I am not so certain at all that we shall be al·le to get it.

(Mr. Tennyson.) We were approached by the Dutch Minister with regard to the Java cargo, and we told him we were hoping to get the ships ou and asked him to He has never inform us who the consignees were. replied. Possibly if we stirred him up again he might. 677. (Chairman.) We shall have to get a good deal further yet before we can start to move either of those

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