180
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O. 885
150
it is impossible for me, in respect of those States in regard to any public works, to take any step that would bind them. I think that is quite clear. On the other hand the benefits of a resolution like this will apply equally to all the States and it might be that the Governments of those States would take the view which I think in principle might be taken of endeavour- ing as far as possible to give to the United Kingdom or to other parts of the Empire orders which cannot be executed within the particular State or within the Commonwealth. I should like to add as to remounts that the way this question has presented itself in our part of the world is that it would be perhaps a wise thing if the requirements, the ordinary requirements of the Imperial Government with respect to remounts were made known, and the proportion of them which it would undertake to take from the several Colonies, so that there might be something in front of horsebroeders; also if it were to be made known to them what precisely was the type of horse required. Of course, it cannot be expected that without information of that kind, the type of horse would be found otherwiso than by accident. If the type of horse were made known and also the number which the War Office would be ready to take every year, there is no doubt not only that the typo of horse which I suppose is fairly described in the Indian papers which have been published could be and would be largely bred, but they would be bred in greater numbers than the War Office could require, so that there would be a reserve in case of further necessities if war broke out.
The SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR: Mr. Chamberlain, I am not very sorry that this resolution has been brought forward, becauso so far as I am concerned-the department over which I preside-I am very much in sympathy with it, and shall be glad to do everything we can to give effect to the principle. But I am also glad that it has been pushed forward, because I think it will enable us to get rid of a certain amount of misapprehension as to what has occurred. In the first place, I think an immense amount of interest and criticism has been excited by the very large profits made on the meat contract in South Africa, but although I have not been able to go into details of the accounts, which of course the Company is not bound to render to us, I have a strong impression that we should be quite wrong in supposing that those profits have been made to a large extent on the meat imported. There is no question that at the time the contract was made it was almost an impossibility for Lord Kitchener to foresee to what extent cattle would be captured, and under all the circumstances, seeing that the contractors would have to supply the troops in the field, they consequently asked for and obtained a considerable margin between the price at which captured cattle were to be handed over to them and the price at which they were to be distributed slaughtered to the troops as they were required; and my impres- sion is that they got very nearly the whole of their profits in that way. But what I point out is that the best tender wo have had from Australasia for delivery, not in the field, but at a Cape port, was 6d. per lb. ex-store ship, and under the contract to which I have been alluding, not the Bergl contract, but the old one under which such a great profit was made, the contractors were only paid 7d. per lb., and for that they had to distribute the frozen meat throughout South Africa. Consequently it is obvious they remained content at a lower figure than that at which the Colonies, after due consideration, were willing to supply it, and, therefore, while it is very natural that every- body should have wished the Colonies of the Empire to have a fair share of the great bulk of profit while there was anything to be made, I fancy the main profit was made as between the store cattle which were taken in various battles and subsequently slaughtered and distributed to them.
Then, when we come to the Bergl contract, I think that there again there is some misapprehension as to what actually took place. I think there was a feeling, which took the form of one or two telegrams from Prime Ministers in the Colonies, `that Colonial interests had been overlooked. Well, that really was not so. It was quite true that there was hardly sufficient time given, but circumstances occur during operations in the field which sometimes cause delay. We were asked specially to allow Lord Kitchener to send home one or two officers to confer with us bofore the terms of a contract was settled. Lord Kitchener was most anxious to keep down the expense and
151
we did confer with those officers and in the end no very considerable time was left for the contracts. That I think can mend itself in the future.
But Sir Edmund Barton says, that unfortunately it had not been pointed out to the Colonial producers that there were alternativo terius offered for delivery at the port or for distribution, and that they did not know that the distributed alternative was the better one, the more palatablo_to_tho, Government. Well, that is true. On the other hand I am afraid thore again the figures would not have assisted Sir Edmmd Barton in getting the contract, because the contract for delivery at the port was 6d. frozen meat ex storeship, and the contract which was put forward by Mr. Borg and accepted by the Government was 5d. for delivery at any place in South Africa, and that contract is in force at the present moment, and the contractors under that are delivering the frozen meat at any point at which it is required by the troops in South Africa, so that I think under any circumstances the contract was accepted lower. Would the Colonial producer tendor for produce under those terms ?
Then again, in accepting Mr. Bergl, Lord Stanley, who has specially considered this contract, specially had regard to the fact that he and his co-contractors were themselves connected with certain meat producing firms in Australia, and wo wero certainly under the impression that in so doing we were largely safeguarding the certainty of a considerable Colonial sharo being taken in the contract, and there is no doubt on the other hand that we should have been unwise if wo had limited the exportation to Colonial producc entirely. I have not a word to say against the words "as far as practicable," but as a fact, wherever the tide has been seen, especially in Parliament, where there is great sympathy for tho view expressed here, to ho setting in favour of Colonial produce, prices unquestionably show a tendency to harden. And, of course, dealing with the matter ou a very large scale, as we had to do, we then had to be very careful. A difference of a halfpenny a pound makes a great deal of difference. I should like to see some discussion take place as to the scope of the resolution too. I think Sir Wilfrid Laurier rather narrowed it in the few remarks he made, because ho said that at present it was confined to war contracts for supplies. Now that is not so. It is all Army and Navy supplies. It is intended for time of peace as well as time of war. That, I think, is the view of everybody present.
Sir EDMUND BARTON: Yes.
Mr. SEDDON: Yes.
Tho SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR: Therefore, we had to be the more careful. I do not think that with regard to future wars there need be very much of the difficulty we have experience. Of course, we shall certainly largely avail ourselves of the experience gained, and we shall keep our eyes open and we shall keep ourselves informed of the sources of supply in the Colonies both with regard to produce and with regard to remounts. And in time of peace I do not see the slightest difficulty in carrying out tho wholo spirit of the draft resolution.
But I am afraid thero is more difficulty in regard to remounts than is generally supposed. I fought a very heavy battle for the Colonies in the matter of remounts. I am speaking round this table, I may say that I received during this year from Lord Kitchener a strong request that the supply of remounts from Australia should To brought to an end. Several cargoes had arrived which he had considered unfit to put into the field.
Sir EDMUND BARTON: Where did the inspection of them tako place?
The SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR: In Australia.
Sir EDMUND BARTON: By remount officers?
The SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR: By remount officers? I telegraphed to the Governor-General to ask him whether he could not
T 4
8
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- i COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO