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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :--
C.O. 885
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
12 November 1896.]
Mr. FLEMING, C.M.G., C.E.
Chairman continued. experiment, and it would require to be repeated many times before it could be considered more than an experiment. I do not, however, anticipate any greater difficulty in sending a thousand or a million messages than in sending a single one.
68-9. I have been asking these questions, Mr. Fleming, on the supposition, as I stated, that this cable had been laid and was owned by the Governments concerned. Now you have come very distinctly to, the conclusion, I understand, that that would be the cheapest and most pre- ferable arrangement for the public?—I have
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70. You put in a precedent, that of the Bahamas. How does that bear? You put for- ward a cable from the Bahamas to Florida. think it is as an example of the benefits of State ownership. Do you think that we can quite safely be guided by so small an experiment as that I think it gives a very fair indication of what the result would be, and, if I may be per- mitted to add, the year following that referred to the result was even more satisfactory than what I have pointed out. I would draw your attention to the second last paragraph of that extract. stated, "Instead of paying 3,0007, a year in "the form of subsidy, the charge on the colony is already reduced to 1,800 after fully "providing for a sinking fund to cover renewals, "as well as interest on the cost and all other "charges." I have only since I came to London received a copy of the annual report for 1895, which gives the result of the working of that cable the previous year, 1894, and I read from page No. 3 of this report, "The receipts from "the telegraph line between Nassau and Florida "owned by the colony, which were increased by "one-third." If the receipts have increased one- third it would affect the net revenue very favourably indeed. Instead of making the charges 1,8001, as in the previous year, they would be reduced probably to about 1,2001., as against the proposed subsidy of 3,0001.
71. It remains that the cable itself was an easy one to make and the experiment is a small one? That is quite the case, but it does not to my mind follow that the results with a cable ten times the length or even greater would be very different.
72. You have nothing further you wish to add as regards that question of the alternative to State ownership, that of subsidising one of the existing companies, we will say the Eastern Telegraph and Extension Company, to make this? I desire to add nothing to what I have eaid in my statements.
73. What would be the effect of this cable on those companies, if made ?—It would have the effect of lowering their gross receipts, no doubt, very considerably for the time being.
74. Their expenses would remain the same as now, and, according to your estimate, the Govern- ments concerned would take from them half of the old grose receipts? Yes, I think they would.
75. And then they would reduce those gross receipts still further by bringing the rates down to the rates named by you; that is to say, from
Chairman-continued.
[Continued.
the present rate of 4s. 9d. ?—In order to do business at all they would require to bring down their rates to the same charge.
think that there is no argument 76. And you that can be put forward in favour of these com- panies that ought to be allowed to outweigh the public convenience and the imperial considera- tions connected with this new line under State view. 1 do ownership? I have stated my
I do not not know that I have much to add. think that the fact that these companies exist can preclude the laying of another cable for all time.
77. You do not think that any arrangement is practicable which would at one and the same time secure the making of the Pacific Cable by these companies at the same cost to the Govern- ments concerned as would be incurred by their making it themselves and ensuring to the public the advantage of competition?—That is a point I am not able to give an answer to without some consideration.
78. You are not prepared to say, without con- sideration, that no arrangement would be possible with the companies that would protect the public and get the line made as cheaply as under your plan -That has up to the present moment been my view, and it may continue to be. I would not like to give an answer to that question just
now.
79. I may sum up your evidence then as follows: you have no doubt that the cable is practicable from a technical point of view?-1
believe it is.
80. Your opinion is in favour of the route from Vancouver to Fanning Island ?—Yes; it being There are better routes, but the only route. they are not available.
81. You mean it is the only route which goes through British soil? Yes, it is the only route We are not where we can establish a cable. permitted to land any cables on the Hawaiian Islands at any point.
82. You believe that under no circumstances should you be able to do so?-Under no circum- stances can we land cables at Honolulu or any other point on the Hawaiian Islanda.
83. Is that because the United States Govern- ment wishes to reserve the possibility of making for themselves a cable with anywhere?-No, it is owing to a treaty arrangement between the Hawaiian Government and the United States. I have an informal correspondence with the Foreign Minister of the Hawaiian Republic, which I would be very happy to submit if it be desired, on that subject. From that I have reached the conclusion that there is no possibility of gaining a landing on any of the islands.
84. That is to say, no possibility without the consent of the Government of the United States? -Without the consent of the Government and Congress of the United States.
85. And Congress ?-The Government would be willing, I believe. The President himself, I believe, expressed a desire in a Message to Congress.
12 November 1896.]
Sir Saul Samuel.
Mr. FLEMING, C.M.G., C.E.
Chairman-continued.
[Continued.
86. To Senate, not to Congress? Yes, to the laid, for a certain number of years?—I think
so; I think that is very important. Senate as a portion of Congress.
Chairman,
87. And you do not believe that the consent, if asked, would be forthcoming?—I do not think it can be had at present.
88. And therefore you arrive at the Fanning Ieland route, not as the best route of all co- ceivable routes, but as the best route; the only route which is practically available?—It is not the best route by any means, but it is the only
route we have.
89. Your estimate of the cost of laying and maintaining and working the cable, and of the revenue which will arise from the traffic is contained in this memorandum ?— It is.
90. You are deliberately of opinion that the cable should be owned and worked by the Governments concerned conjointly I am.
91. On that supposition, what would be the proper method of management and administration, supposing that the Australian Governments and the Dominion of Canada and the Imperial Government had all contributed to the cost? Oh, it is rather difficult for me to say, but I should think that a commission or trust appointed by the Imperial Government, and approved by the Govertiments of the Colonies and Canada, could carry it out very well.
trust
92. Would you carry it out by a appointed by the Governments concerned?- Yes; n commission, or possibly a department authorised by the Government.
93. A department of the Imperial Govern- ment -A department of the Imperial Govern-
ment.
94. Of course the other Ciovernments would require to be represented in it?—In some way.
95. But you see no difficulty in coming to an arrangement of that kind?—I do not see any great difficulty.
96. I have one further rather important question to ask you, Mr. Fleming. Suppose that your views had been accepted by all the Goveruments concerned, and suppose they had come to that point that they were going to issue tenders for a contract, I presume you would wish to see this line constructed by contract? By public contract.
97. By public contract?--Yes.
98. How would you set about to make your form of tender, and what are the points that you would lay special stress upon in the tender?- The material of which the cable would be com- posed. That would require to be very carefully arranged by those who are perfectly familiar with the subject, by electricians. They would have to prescribe how many pounds of copper and how many pounds of insulating material should be put into the cable, and how the cable should be constructed, so that the best results would be obtained when the cable came to be
laid.
99. Do you consider that one of the terms of the conditions undoubtedly should be that the contractor should maintain the cable, after it is
100. And you think three is sufficient?-1 think three is ample; I think if a cable is main- tained for three years there would be very little difficulty about it being a permanent cable.
Sir Saul Sumuel.
101. I have only one or two questions to ask. The double cable, I think you said, Mr. Fleming, you had not taken into consideration ?-I had not seriously, but I have considered it. I have not referred to it in any of these papers.
102. No; but we have no experience, have we, of any cable of this great length and depth from Fanning Island to Vancouver, where a single cable has been laid and depended on entirely for uninterrupted communication?—We
have not.
103. Then this, in fact, would be an experi- ment ! Well, it might be called an experiment, but I think there would be no fear of it being a successful one.
104. I see it is mentioned here that the only other instance mentioned of a cable longer than this is that mentioned by Mr. Frederick Ward : Doubts have been raised as to the possibility of passing messages through the section be- **tween Vancouver and Fauning Island, on "account of its unprecedented length, the dis- "tance being 3,240 miles, to which, if sufficient "allowance for slack he added, the length of "cable required will be about 3,600 miles, a
**
length considerably exceeding that of any "cable yet laid. Through the courtesy of Mr. "Frederick Ward, manager in England of the
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Commercial Cable Company, I have had the "question tested practically within the past few
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days. At my request, Mr. Ward caused ex- periments to be tried through two of the main cables of his company. They were looped at Canso (Nova Scotia), so as to form a con- "tinuous cable line from Waterville (Ireland) to "Canso and back. The experiments were per-
fectly siccessful; messages were passed through "the whole length of cable, measuring 4,733 "nautical miles, fully 1,100 miles greater than "the Vancouver-Fanning cable." Now, is that case mentioned as a parallel one to the cable Vancouver ?-No, from Fanning Island to
it is not. It is simply mentioned as evidence that there would be no difficulty in sending messages through a cable of the length of the one between Vancouver and Fanning Island.
105. No; that, I imagine, is pretty well known; but is it a fact that in the case mentioned here there was a repeating station-In the case referred to there were no repeating stations.
106. No repeating stations?—No.
107. You mean to say it was one continuous length of cable?-One continuous length of cable from Canso to Waterville, in Ireland. The Commercial Cable Company have two, indeed they have three cables, across the Atlantic. Two of those were joined at the
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