CO885-(6-7) — Page 291

23

296

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O. 885

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

12 November 1896.]

Mr. FLEMING, C.M.G., C.E.

Sir Saul Samuel-continued. Canadian end, and messages were sent through the double cable without any repetition.

108. Through the double cable ?—Through the double cable.

109. Then there must have been repeating stations, surely, where the line was double?--- There was no repetition at all; they were con- nected by a wire.

Mr. Gillies.

110. It was done on purpose?—It was done at my request.

Sir Saul Samuel.

111. It was done on purpose, no doubt; it was done at Mr. Sandford Fleming's request; but what I want to know is, in the case of the cable from Fanning Island to Vancouver there can be no repeating stations there?-There can be no repeating stations there.

112. There can be no repeating stations there, unless they are at the bottom of the sea?-No, and there were none here.

113. I want to know whether there were any here? Of course I took the word of Mr. Ward; I could not be in two places at the same time.

114. Mr. Ward does not say whether there repeating station or not, or more than one ?-1 am absolutely certain that my request was carried out in good faith.

Way

115. I should like to know more about it. -Mr. Ward can appear and speak for himself.

Mr. Gillies.

116. If there was a repeating station there

point in it ?-None at all.

18 no

Sir Saul Samuel.

sea of

117. He does not say it is over a 4,000 fathoms ?--I had no other way of testing the electrical properties of a long cable.

118. I quite understand that.-I am very sure that Mr. Ward carried out the request in good faith.

119. I have no doubt he did, but he does not say that to a depth of 3,000 fathome?—I have not seen Mr. Ward since it was done; he wrote me, and sent me a specimen of the tape on which was written the message sent from and received at Waterville. I took that tape to Mr. Siemens, who understands everything connected with telegraphy, and he read the tape in his office across the way there.

120. Of course I do not doubt Mr. Ward, and I am quite sure you will not suppose for a moment that I doubt you; it is merely an answer to this question; but what I want to find out is, whether there were any repeating etations where the message went over 4,000 miles ?-I believe there were no repeating stations whatever; there was a station where you could repeat, but repe- tition was done away with for the moment.

121. When these tenders were invited did the tenderers understand that if any tender was ac- cepted it would be binding upon them?—I do

[Continued.

12 November 1896.]

Sir Saul Samuel continued.

not know; but I do not doubt they understood it in that way.

121. There were several tenderers, and, of course, the tenders were not to be of any value unless it was understood that they contracted to complete the work?-The tenders are in posses- sion of the Colonial Office at this moment, and they will speak for themselves. I think it will be found that the tenderers state that they are pre- pared to carry out the work at the price stated.

122. That is what I wanted to know?—Yes; they may not now be prepared to carry it out; I do not know that; it was some time ago; it was in the year 1894. Two years have elapsed, and the price of copper and the price of insulat- ing material may have gone up.

Mr. Gillies,

Is

123. Running your eye, Mr. Fleming, upon the questions that were put by the Chairman, I will take pretty well the order in which they run. the laying of such a cable practical from a tech- nical point of view; I suppose we mean by a technical point of view, are any of the known causes likely to be at work which would prevent that cable from being usefully laid; for instance, ocean depth and the great distance between any two points; I daresay you noticed in the state- ment coming from the Admiralty a little while ago that they had discovered a depth in the Pacific Ocean, not far from Australasin, of 5,000 fathoms ?

Yes, I noticed that.

-

124. Would you consider that would be a difficulty in the way-Well, I am not aware that any

Buch depth obtains on the line, or on any of the lines projected between Australasia and Canada.

125. That is on those particular lines that you think ?—I remember, when the discovery of very deep water was announced several years ago, I looked up the chart at the time, and i found that the point where the deep water was found was a long, long way from any possible cable, possibly from 300 to 500 miles.

126. But would you consider that any such depth as that would be a practical difficulty in the way? Well, I am not able to answer that question; I would rather myself ask a man who has laid more cables than I have; I have laid

none.

127. Then your evidence on the question of cable laying, like some of oure, is not expert evidence ?-No; I am afraid I cannot answer that question, but I know quite well the difficulty you speak of is a long way from any possible cable that might be laid between this country and Australasia.

128. Is it within your information as to the general depth on the line that is approved of, at any rate that was mentioned by the Australasian colonies?-My recollection of the sounding is that the depth will range for a great part of the way between Vancouver and Fanning Island, at least, from 2,700 to 3,000 or 3,100 fathoms. I think the deepest sounding obtained is 3,100 fathoms.

Mr. FLEMING, C.M.G., C.E.

Mr. Gillies--continued. 129. And as you go between Fiji and Norfolk Island? Of course the soundings would vary there. As you approach the Fiji and other islands the soundings would become less.

130. I think you have mentioned in one of your communications that are contained in your correspondence, that some years ago the diffi- culties in laying cables were very great, but that of late years they have become much more simple ?—Yes.

131. Is it your opinion, as we get from some of these papers it is the opinion of some others, that these cables should be placed on the bottom of the ocean?-I do not know where else they can go; they must go down to the bottom.

? I 132. Do they, as they invariably say think so.

133. Do you mean to say that they all lie absolutely on the hottom?-They certainly do, as far as I know.

Of

134. Do you mean to say there are no places where they hang ver?—I do not know of any; you mean chasms in the bottom of the ocean. course it is impossible for anyone to say.

135. That is the whole point?-And even that is overcome by allowing sufficient slack.

136. Mr. Henley has a report here which deals to a large extent upon that point, and there is a reference made to it by Mr. Siemens; but these to some extent, not only whether a cable can be placed on this route,-whether it would be practicable from a technical point of view, but also from some of the information contained in these papers it appears to seriously affect the cost of maintenance. I think you said in one of your communications that the length of the life of a cable is believed now to be very much longer than was proved some years ago, simply because it is better laid; is that your opinion?—Yes; that is one of the chief reasons. I am pretty well satisfied that there has been a mistaken idea as to the short life of a cable, of any cable, even those which were not so perfectly made as they are to-day, and on that point I have referred to a pamphlet by Captain Goodsall, an extract from which I gave in some one of these letters. From that gentleman I received a letter the other day in which he expresses his willing ness to appear before the Committee, so that they may have the benefit of his experience. In answer to that question in a general way, sir, if I volunteer a few words, I think the bottom

may of the sea may be looked upon as pretty much like the surface of the land, and we can all see with what ease a cable can be laid over any country, even a mountainous country, and how it would lie on all slopes just as well as on a per- diffi- fectly level bottom. I do not conceive any culty whatever in crossing any country, even the Rocky Mountains, with a cable.,

137. Only your opportunities for knowledge would not be so easily obtained in the one case as the other. You have no opportunity of. making such surveys as you have on ground? We have, by taking a few soundings, the oppor- tunity of getting a general knowledge of the

bottom.

[Continued.

Mr. Gillies--continued. 138. A few ?-Yes, a few. Take the sound- ings that have already been made in the Pacific, say between the Sandwich Islands and the American Continent. These soundings are on a very uniform bottom, so uniform that it may be compared very much to the prairies of Central North America. I do not say the same character obtains all the way to Australia; 1 am inclined to think the bottom would be more uuevén as you go towards Australia; but the soundings which have been made by the Admiralty will indicate exactly what is to be found there.

139. But are they considered to be sufficiently numerous and sufficiently consecutive to give one an idea exactly of the roure which would be taken, and which it is desired to travel?—I

an speaking of the general character of the bottom of the North Pacific, and they are suffi- ciently numerous to give a very good idea of the bottom of the sea.

un the 140.1 understood you to say not Australian side?-I think the soundings will be found more variable on the Australian side, where they have been made by the Admiralty.

141. I suppose you are aware that it has been pressed very strongly from time to time the necessity of having those surveys made and completed?—I am quite aware of that.

142. Aud do you disagree with the necessity of that ?—No, I do not wholly disagree, but 1 am perfectly satisfied of this, that all soundings that are necessary for the laying of the cable can be made during the manufacture of the cable. Sufficient is already known to establish that the laying of the cable is practicable from end to end. Any additional soundings needed can be made during the manufacture of the cable.

143. May I ask what do you mean by "practicable;" is it simply that it is known that it is possible that a cable could be laid? . Yes, that is what I mean.

144. Well, then, I gather from some of the statements here that you have stated that the mere fact of having obtained tenders from a company to lay a cable on that route shows that it is practicable ?—I think it is very good evidence.

145. I am not going to discuss it. I merely want to know what your mind is?—Yes, I have said so, and I think so still.

146. The mere fact of a company having tendered, or several companies having tendered, to lay a cable on that route for specific sums of money, you think is evidence of its being practi- cable? That fact, taken with other facts. That fact itself goes a long way.

147. So that you think it is really demon- strated; the practicability of the proposal is demonstrated by that circumstance? The prac ticability of the laying of the cable is established, to my own satisfaction at all events.

148. Then in answer to that second question, If so, the route which should be selected for the cable, you think is practically then settled, with doubt? The second slight deviations, no question is what route should be selected. There

C4

24