PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference -
PEPLLC.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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20 doly Blos
LENQUIRY
CROWN AGENTS ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. HERBERT F. SMITH.
an ile office a few days ago. We have to buy amongst other things textiles, and amongst our patterns we have varieties of dark blue serge. The Admiralty only have three, and it would be very much easier for us if we had only to luty three varieties.
284i. Does that make you work longer hours? No, bat it requires a good deal more care to see that we supply the right article, and it is also much more dith- cult to get
2847. Is it harkr work, do you mean?—Not more laborious work, but it requires more care.
24. (Mr. Lenthes.) It requires a larger staff. I presume Certainly.
2×49, (Clairman.) But each man does not work any harder? I do not suppose so; I have not sufficient knowing of that.
2950), (3, fithson.) It entails much greater dis erimination and care from the higher members of the staff to see that they do not send the wrong stuff to the Colony —Quite.
251. The fewer the patterns the simple the work, of course? Yes.
2862. Have your representatives suggested any brates of pay! I do not want to press you about this. hat do you desire to bring yourself into line with tho Admiralty and the India Oife in that respect also?--- I do not think the staff have gone so far as to suggest any scale.
1858, (t'baisman.) But you think there should be an increase! You.
24. And there. I presume, you speak for every- bly I feel sure 1 16.
955. Then you say: "The salaries paid in the Supply and Accounting Departments of the India Vitice and of the Admiralty are much higher than those paid to the same department in this office." Do you mean the corresponding departments?--Yes,
286. The organisation of the three offers is not identical, and we have therefore calculated the salaries on two different bases for the convenience of the Con- mitte. The figures given are the average of the salaries of the upper establishments in each of the offices, The figures for the India Office and the Admiralty are taken from the ordinary handbooks. anl where the scale is progressive, the mean is given. * £600 £200 = £700. The salaries for the Crown Agents Office are those now paid"; and then you show us this list, which you yourself have verißed? Yes, as nearly as I can.
2857. According, to your showing, then, the Crown Agents Office compares very unfavourably, making it an average of about £100 to £110 less. Is that your view-The comparison is still more unfavourable, I think.
2858. Of course, the Committee will take this into their consideration. You say that: "The staff of this office has increased from 95 in 1900 to 1980 in 180. and the work in a greater proportion. The general rate of pay has not risen since then. nor has the number of first and second class appointments." Could you tell us whether the work, as far as you know. is likely to continue to increase ?--Yes, as far as one can see the tendency is to a steady increase.
2959. Has there not been a decrease since the Trans- vaal and Orange River Colony berame self-governing ? -Not in my department, and I believe not in any other; there has been a steady increase in my depari ment ever since it has been created.
2860. It shows no signs of slackening?--No, not up to the end of June last.
2861. Then you say "In the past the conduct of all important business was in the hands of the Crown Agents themselves. With the increase of work, respon silde duties have necessarily passed from the Crown Agents to the staff, and we submit that those who have the disposition of large sums of money and the placing of large contracts should receive remunera tion more commensurate with the responsibilities they now have to incur. Similarly the work of the first class has been delegated to the sound. and that of the send to the third. and a much higher standard of rellence is requires of these three classes now
than was necessary ten or twelve years ago, before the fourth class or the boy clerks had been introduced into the olive. These last two classes now torm the balk Would you say that the people of the clerical staff." whom you represent must necessarily be persons of some considerable intelligence, and that their work cannot be sand to be wholly mechanical?—Certainly
nut.
262. Brains are required? Yes.
#~63. (Mr. fithson,). When you speak with regard to having the disposition of large sums of money atul the placing of large contracts, taking the Head of a Department or the Head of the tieneral Stores Branch, yourself, du you absolutely have the determinatma of the brus with whom the contracts are to be placed ur does a Crown Agent specifically approve each con- tract that is made-I have the determination under certain rules, and the Crown Agents see where the contracts are placed, that as to say, the list of th firms tendering and the actual orders placed go befor 11•.
2861. I rather meant in a particular case. Suppos- ing there was a contract for one of these blue serges, I take it that, supposing you accepted the lowest tender and conformed to the general principles, you would have the right to settle the firm that was to get that contract ?— Absolutely.
2×65, (St Francis Mowatt.) Does not the ultimate acceptatice go before the Crown Agent! -The order is signed by the secretary,, but it is usually looked upon. as a formal matter.
2866. Mr. Bailey.) The order for what 2--The actual order, that is to say, accepting the tender.
2867. (Mr. Harris.) Supposing it was for one of these serges-say, for police clothing in one of the Colonies the Crown Agent would not see the accep
see the tance,
I understand?-No, he would not acceptance.
68. Supposing by an error the wrong serge went out to the Colonies, what would happen to you?--I should be blamed, probably, if it was my fault.
2500. Things would not go beyond a wigging 7-1t depends on the seriousness of the error, I am afraid.
2870, (Platieman.) You have the settling of these matters yourself?—Yes. Of course, it is done in con- sultation with the Crown Agents when I think 1 ought to ask them.
2871. As a general rule, do you or do you not ?-- I could not give you a general rule.
2872. Do you more frequently consult them or more frequently not --As far as the placing of orders is concerned, more frequently not, but when difficulties arise, as you may have gathered difficulties do arise, generally one does consult the Crown Agents as to how the diliculty is to be lealt with or answered.
2873. Difficulties of what kind do you mean?--You may have heard that we receive complaints of various kinds from the Colonies; they are very seldom justi fied, but they have to be explained.
9474. In the absence of a complaint from a Colony, as a general rule, do you act in the placing of a con- tract on your own authority —Yes.
2975. (Mr. Gibson.) Under settled principles ?~~ Under settled principles; that is to say. that I should have to be very careful in placing an order with anybly but the lowest tenderer without very good
reason.
a difficulty
2876. (Sir Francis Moratt.) When arises and you desire to consult somebody, do you con suit a Crown Agent or the secretary Not the spere tary: the seretary has no connection as far as I understand with the organisation of the oflies at all.
977. Mr. Badry.) He is not concerned with the work of any of the branches; you would not think of consulting the secretary in the absence of a Crown Agent Certainly not."
2578, (Sir Albert Spicer. How far in ordinary orders. wonkl the Crown Agents specify what firm was to have the order I do not think the Crown Agent, as far as ny experience goes, would ever specify a firm to have the order.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. HERBERT E. SMID.
2-79. After the tenders had been received?- No. 2890. He would leave it to your Department to nish He would leave it to me, and if I suggested that a certain firm that was not the lowest tenderer was to have it he would probably talk to me about it.
. If it was not the lowest you would have
a Tious difference i consult hum! If there was price, or unless there was an obvious reason for not going to the lowest.
12, (34. Bailey.) You would have, in fact, to Justify to the Crown Agents your recommendation for passing over the lowest tender!--Yes.
2883, (Mr. Leathes.) When a requisition is received to whom does it go first?-It is gone by the secretary.
21. Then does it come to you? It is put into a jacket and then comes to me..
9. Die you deal with it without its going to the Clown Agent at all, provided it is perfectly normali
2. From the moment it is received until the moment thay order goes out it is not necessary for the Crown Agent to see it at all; there is no point at which he intervenes necessarily ?– Neessarily there is
nt at which his decision is required, his sig nature may be required, but not his decision.
7. When a thing goes to him for signature locs le the evidence, the papers generally? Does it go t him with all the papers or just for signature -- When competition is invited the tenders go to him without the papers.
2888, (Mr. Gibson.) Largely it is a matter for your personal discretion, whether the thing goes on to the Crown Agent or not?—Yes.
909), (Chairman.) Then you say: "Ir may be con- tended that the present staff have passed no entrance examination and are not therefore entitled to the same consideration as members of the Civil Service. We alt that an examination is at best an artificial test and is no guarantee of suitability for the future. The first and second classes in this office have obtained their position by years of service, and they have no reason to believe that the service has been anything but ⚫fficient; in this way they claim to have passed a more rigorous text than an entrance examination. Most of the hrst and second class clerks have entered this die from public schools at the age of 18 to 20, al they are therefore probably derived from the same class as the Civil Servants who passed the examina. tion for the Supply and Accounts Departments of the public service; it is with das class that we wish to be compared "; have you anything further to add on shat? You say that an examination is at best an artificial test : however, you are there, of course?— We ar
2590. S that it is more a matter of asking your opinion as to the appointment of other people in future. Do you consider that the appointment by examination is a method which would not suit the work of the office?-Not at all.
2891. Provided you are not prejudiced you have no objection to a system of entrance examination to the Crown Agents - Personally I think it would be the best solution of a difficulty.
2. You put in this as a caveat that your own position should not be prejudiced?-Quite, but, so far as the selection of the staff in the future is concerned. I do not see any other sourev.
2803. (Mr. Tenthes,) Would you apply that to the whole of the 200 or so of the clerical members of your staff I think so
2901. You would not wish to have a fringe, as yout might say, of casual labour? There are the buy Popyists.
995. They are boys who naturally move on else where, but ab we them? I cannot see any newily f it.
2806. You do not think it would assist you in running your particular branch to feel that there i a proportion of your clerks whom you could dismi 41 a month's notice? Not in the slightest; in fre it is rather a disadvantage if anything.
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299 July 1908,
2897, (Mr. Bailey.) In what way!-A to the class of man you get-- I think if he is subject to a month's notice you have to pay him more and you do not get such a good man. His interests are not the interests of the other if he knows he is liable to louissal at short notice.
2894, (M. Gibson.) You have seven clerks in class IN in your particular department of General Stores: are you satisfied as a rule with their work and etli ciency? I think there are more than seven.
2899, 1 am excluding the pattern rooms.--The pat- tern rous and the inspection room are all parts of my department.
1940, I was ref rring to the type of man yon have in class IV.; they have been recruited from various sources-- Yes,
2011. And you think you woubl prefer to get those men practically from the Civil Service?--If you could get good shough ones; my experience is that the fourth class clerks as a whole, who are the boys drawn chiefly from the lower grades, are not good enough for the work we have to do, that is to say, we want a higher proportion of a better educated class.
2902. I am assuming that, to a certain extent, the fourth class you have there would be recruited from the Civil Service with a superior scale of pay?—Yes.
2903. Starting at something like £100 a year. If you got the type of man who enters the Admiralty and the War Office and other departments at some- thing like £80, £90, and £100 a year, that would be the class of man who would do the bulk of your clerical work apart from the boy copyists 7-Yes,"
2004. And from those you would be able to recruit your section heads and deputy heads?-Undoubtedly.
2905. You would have more stability of tenure and greater interest in the welfare of the office in the case of men who were on a permanent basis; that is your opinion?—Yes.
2008. Even with regard to what has been said just now about the difficulty of reducing when the work Blacks off. if your people all entered in the same examination, is it not the case that there is no dish- culty in representing the fact to the Civil Service Commissioners and they could be absorbed in other offices, provided they are on the same scales of pay? -I do not know.
2907. (Chairman.) You say: "In conclusion, we submit these views in all deference to any views that may be expressed by the Crown Agents themselves on the same subject. The relations between the Crown Agents and the staff an of the most cordial nature, and we gladly testify to the kindness and consideration with which we are treated"; have you anything to add to that?—No.
2908. (Sir Albert Spicer.) You told us just now that the signature of the Crown Agent was required but not the decision 7-Yes.
2000. Does the Crown Agent. sign just whatever you present to him?If you will understand me. I put forward a form initialled for him to sign. He has the opportunity of arresting any action that may have been taken up that at that time, but I never put forward any form of that kind for him to sign if 1 think it is at all likely that he would wish to arrest netion.
I should not innke it a trap for him. Ile trusts to my honesty in the matter.
910. Will the matter have come before him be- fore?--No, not in that particular case—that is, the placing of onlers.
2011. Have you had many cases where he has not signed it exactly as you have presented it to him?- I cannot recall one.
2012. So that you have come to look upon it as that you look to him for his signature but not for a decision--In those cases, yes.
2013. (Mr. Leathes.) These are matters which are perfectly straightforward ?-Absolutely straight-
forward.
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