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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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GROWN AGENTS EXQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. HERBERT F. Switu.

204. (M. Harris.) You put in a plea just now for what you described as a more impersonal rate of salary; do you think it possible that if such were introduced into your office the result would be a less satisfactory grip on the discipline of the office? Do you think men would then begin to feel they could kick, or be slacker?-1 do not think so; I think really, in practice, that there is the ordinary Civil Service spirit in the office, and 1 believe, as a rule, the Civil Service spirit is a very good spirit.

2915. Then you said In reply to one question that you would like to see a higher proportion of a better eluented class of man coming in': does that mean that you think the recent reorganisation, bringing in a larger proportion of fourth class clerks has been more or loss a failure? -No, but I think it has been carried

to excess.

2016. (Chairman.) You do not think all the ability ought to be concentrated at the top!-The work would collapse if it was, especially the contract work, which is the work I know best; it is absolutely necessary

to have younger men who are quite capable of judg ing for themselves and acting for themselves.

2917. Taking responsibility —Yes.

2918. (Mr. Bailey.) Lower down than yourself i— Considerably lower-down to the third class without doubt, and the more there are of the third class tifo better the work would be done, and the fewer the men you would want to do it.

2919. (Mr. Leathes.) Do you think it would be pos- sible if you had a larger proportion of the higher class clerk to reduce the total personnel?—Yes, that is our experience.

2020. You really think you could do with fewer if it was well organised?--I think so.

2921. (Chairkan.) What you would save in salary you would lose in additional appointments, and vice Persii 7-What I mean to say is that two third class clerks would do as much work as three fourth class -could get through as much work.

29. Is there anything more you wish to tell the Committee-No.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. S. C. ALroud, called and examined.

2923. (Chairman.) Would you first of all kindly tell your experience and how long you have been in the olier - joined in November, 1900, about 8 years ago.

2. Which grade are you now in-The third eese rather sub- class. The third class is f divided: some of the third class vccupy the position known as the heads of sections, and 1'am the head of a section.

2925, Will you kindly tell us how many people you represent in this matter, and how far you have been able to consult them-how far you speak for all or some or what proportion?-We number about 22, and I think I may say we have been practically unanimous all through.

2926. We will just go through your precis and per- haps you will tell us any fresh things that vecur to you: The clerks of the third class were appointed to this class in the first instance without preliminary service in a lower class."

2927, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) That is the same class as has been described to us as leads of sections?-Somie third class clerks are heads of sections.

8. And are the others assistants-They have not yet attained to the dignity of a headship of a section.

2929, (Chairman.) How were you appointed to the offic. at first I was a candidate for the Junior Appointment of Supply and Accounts at the Admir alty, and I presume the Crown Agents got some names from the Civil Service Commissioners, and some circulars

They received 2931. You continue in your precis: their appointments in the expectation that service in this grade was the road to promotion. This view s confirmed by precedent, and by the letters written by the Crown Agents to certain of the candidates for third What do you mean by letters class clerkships." written to certain candidates -We were given letters in which we were told that we had prospects of rising to certain salaries which were obviously the salaries of the higher appointments.

2935. Will you read it to us?—The particular para- graph I referred to was this: The commencing salary is a year with prospects of promotion through interme-liat grades to posts carrying from £50 to £800 a year."

2936, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) This view is confirmed by precedent, you say?-Yes, our reason for saying that is this, that the lower grade clerk, the fourth class clerk, came into existence in the beginning of 1900, and since that date no less than 15 appointments have been made direct to the third class from outside. 2037. (Chairman.) Could you tell us why you put this forward prominently in your precis? Are you afraid now that the road to promotion is blocked - No, but we have gathered from certain that there is a disposition to run two rather different types in the office concurrently; whether or not that will go on in the future I cannot say, but if it dos we rather want to bring out the fact that we were brought in to be of the higher lot.

events

2938, (Mr. Gibson.) That you were brought in prac a higher initial rate of pay and in a superior position to the recently appointed fourth class clerks Exactly.

tically at were issued to certain candidates next highest on the list who had not got through. I had one and I applied and was appointed.

2930, (Mr. Lathes.) Could you tell us what place you took in the competition ?—Yes. I was seventeenth, I think.

2931. How many vacancies did you compete for ?- Twelve.

29.2. Did you undergo any medical examination ?— For the Crown Agents, yes,

23. (Chairman.) How many were competing at that time when you were seventeenth. do you remember 7-65 or 70. think. I take the opportunity of pointing out that at the time of our appointments, 1 and others subsequently obtained from the same Boures were still eligible and were working for later examinations for the same service. In view of the high places we had obtained at our first attempts, our We prospects of ultimate success were very great. may reasonably contend, therefore, that the Crown Agents office now contains some men who otherwise wohl now be in the Admiralty.

2939. (Chairman.) If there are two classes, you want to be in the upper one?-We think it was intensled that we should."

22940), (Mr. Gilson.) Practically you were brought in at a higher rate of pay than has since been given to the fourth class clerks?--Yes, we never were fourth class clerks.

2941. At the time you were brought in other people were brought in in a lower grade at a lower rate Yes.

2942. (Mr. Leathes,) Have some fourth class clerks heen promoted to the third class recently ?--I think there is only one case.

2913, (Sir Francis Mowatt) I do not quite under- staml: has anyone been appointed over your head, for instance, from outside 7-- Kot over mine.

41. Has anybody been appointed from outside over the head of any third class clerk ?—No, with the excep tion of the office of secretary.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. S. C. ALFORD.

29145. That is not within the expectation held out to you? - No.

916. Then I hardly see what the complaint is.— There is no complaint.

2947. It appears from this that you were promised a roud to promotion, and that promise is confirmed by precedent, and that apparently it has not beel broken? That is so; it is not intended to be a coin- plaint. We merely want to emphasise the position and to bring it clearly out.

an apprehension 2948. (Mr. Bailey.) There is amongst members of your class that under this new system, introduced in the beginning of 1901, one of the Conditions of the service under which you were engaged may be departed from. Is that sol

12919. (Mr. Gibson.) Your point rather is that your section are afraid of being amalgamated with the class who entered under different "conditions? Yes, we wish to guard ourselves.

2950. (Mr. Leathes.) If the department were re- organised you wish your interests to be safeguarded by this statement ?--Quite so; there is no complaint. 1931. (Chairman.) What salary do you draw now? --At present £200.

2932. And you commenced at?-£100. 1933. You were advanced to £200 in eight years?-- Yes, by different increments.

951. By annual increments?--Yes, not always the

Saine.

2955. Did you know when you were appointed what your annual increment was to be?-It was not men. tioned at the time of the appointment.

2956. What happened? Did the Crown Agents come and tell you you had done your work well, and that' you would get so much - When I came in the only information 1 had about increments was from what had happened to other people in the part.

2957. That is to say, in the course of conversation you were told that there would be £20 this year!-- When I came in the increment for some years had been £15, but in that year I came in it suddenly dropped to £10.

N958. Was the reason given that there was less busi- ness? No, I heard no reasoti.

2959. (Mr. Bailey.) Then your later increments have been more than £107-Yes, since I became head of a section have received £15.

2960. In the last two years-Three. I think; but the appointment of head of section only came into existence two or three years ago.

2961. (Chairman.) Perhaps this is a convenient point to ask you what your view is, and that of the pple you represent, as to this question of the incre incuts and the pensions. Would you desire to have it a fixed scale somewhat similar to the rule that obtains in the Civil Service where everybody knows where he stands, or would you wish it to continue as at present more vague, with the possibility of greater increases or greater reductions?-1 think we are all alutely unanimous about that point; we all wish to have a sale of pay with annual increments.

2982. (Mr. Bailey.) Although you know in an ordi- nary Civil Service office the increment is not abso- lutely a matter of course-that is to say, it is within the power of the head of a department to withhold an ierement? Yes, we realise that; but I take it that it is only withheld in the case of some shortcoming In the present case on the part of the Civil servant.

We cannot tell what our increments are going to be, suposing we do satisfactory work.

2968. (Chairman.) Does this uncertainty cause dis- satisfaction? Yes; we cannot form any idea what ne prospects are or what our rate of advancement will be in the ense of satisfactory work, or what the promotion would mean to us.

21. You say your friends are absolutely unani- mas on the point? Yes, absolutely.

29965. Mout poundage, do you receive an additional sum each year which is called poundage' - Yes.

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2966. Which one witness said to us about paid for your holidays -It is about 4 per cent. on our pay, and, as far as the junior stati are concerned, it would bviously be insufficient to meet the expenses of the holidays.

2967. Do the people in the othice understand what it is-1 think it is fairly well understood; at least, I understand because I have something to do with it.

2068. What do you understand it is 1-It is the per- centage paid by Somerset House to the office for col- lecting income tax.

2960. (Mr. Leathes.) You collect a very large amount of income tax-Yes.

2970. You collect all the income-tax from the people whose salaries you pay ?--Yes, and also, of course, on the dividends we pay, and that is the fruitful source. 2971. (Mr. Harris.) Does it give you any extra work -Personally it gives me a good deal.

2972. (Mr. Gibson.) But it is divided over the whole staff irrespective of whether they do the work or not?

--Yes.

2973. (Mr. Bailey.) It forms part of your ordinary duties? It is hardly fair to say that it causes_me extra work, but my duties generally have often necessitated my working to a very late hour.

2974. It would be part of the ordinary duty assigned to you 7-Yes.

2975. (Chairman.) But the others who have nothing to do with it also receive this poundage?—Yes, al- though I believe at one time that was not so).

2976, Formerly the people who did the work got the poundage !—They either got the poundage or a higher proportion, I am not certain which.

2977. (Mr. Gibson.) If you came under the Civil Service rules with scales of pay and definite incre ments, and also the Civil Service pension rules, you would expect to give up some of these what you might call special concessions that are allowed to the staff What would the of the Crown Agents, I take it. representatives of your staff think of that I think the impression we all have is that this poundage existed in Civil Service offices at one time, and was stopped, but that existing recipients were compensated. 2978. Do you think you would come into line with the Civil Service in matters of this sort with regard to poundage, insurance and pensions - -I do not think we have pressed absolutely for the Civil Service; we only ask for a scale of pay.

2079. You wepki Tike a definite senle of pay retain- ing these sportál privileges ?—If we could, certainly.

2980. (Chairman.) We need not press you upon that point; there is no doubt that each man would wish to see that in any alteration he personally should not be worse off? That is, so,

281. On this point I should like to ask this: You As far as you have been eight years in the office. know, do the winbers of the staff understand that they are paid out of commissions or business done? Is there any anxiety on their part as to there always being enough money to go round? Has that ever been expressed to you, or there being an adequate amount to pay the pensions -I do not think we have any, or ever had any. apprehension on that score.

1982. The view expressed to us by one witness was that people might be induced to work harder because they realised that their living depended on it; you think that view has not occurred to you before?—No, I do not think it has ever occurred to any of those in my position either.

23. That particular kind of anxiety does not exist at all, in your opinion?-I have never come across it, and I should have heard of it if it existed.

2984. Your second point is: "A scale of salaries aml increments has növer been placed on record, and past events do not point to the existence of such a Mil A member of the staff, therefore, cannot form a - reliable estimate of the possibilities of his future either as a third class clerk or in the event of promotion. For the same reason these clerks, who before appoint- ment reserved letters holding out prospects of ad- rtain erfist salaries are unable to realise the manner in which these prospects may be

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