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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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20 July 1908.

ROWN AGENTS' EXQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. E. G. ANTHORUS.

270. Whose duty is it to make out returns, and so forth, for the Crown Agents on financial matters /

-Mine or somebody unler me.

2781, (Mr. Leather,) About overtime in your office: what class of clerks are entitled to claim payment for overtime? We do not pay any overtime at all except to the Civil Service boy clerks.

2782. But not to classes IV. and V.? Not to class IV. At times, if there has been a big loan on and people have been required to stop till twelve o'clock at night, we have given money to get dinner and that sort of thing, and lately Sir Ernest Blake has ap proved when a big loan is on of paying a certain amount for overtime.

2783. (Mr. Bailey.) Would that only be on big loan business?-Only on big loan business.

9784, (Mr. Gibson.) With regard to your iden that the staff would be better satisfied if they can on regular scales, those which have been mentioned have been to a large extent on Civil Service lines. but would it be understood and accepted that certain privi- leges or concessions that gow exist in the case of the Crown Agents' staff would have to be withdrawn in the future? I am referring to special concessions under which items like poundage receipts are now addle on to the pay and included in the pension,

whereas, in future also, the pensions would be strictly limited by the Civil Service rules to one-sixtieth for each year, with a maximum of two-thinls. It would be understood that you could not have the advantago of both systems-Exactly.

2785. Although your rates of pay at present appear to be somewhat inadequate, there are various com pensating elements, such as the poundage payments and the rate of pensions. The staff you think would accept the pension according to Civil Service rules?

I think su

2788, (Mr. Leathes.) What rules have you at pre sent as to leave -The I., II, and III. classes have four weeks leave in the year.

2787. (Mr. Bailey.) Is that assured to them, or is it liable to revision year by year?-No. we always get it. The Heads of Departments and Deputy Heads are also allowed to have every other Saturday off for the whole day, and the rest of the office get about sixteen Saturdays in a year.

2788. (Mr. Gibson.) There is one other very consi derable benefit as compared with the ordinary Gvil Service, and that is your insurance system 1– Quite

$0.

2789. (Mr. Leathes.) With regard to class IV. clerks, what leave do they get 7-Three weeks.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. HERBERT E. SMITH, called and examined.

2790), (Chairman.) Do you represent the clerical members of the first and second classes?—Yes.

2791. Can you tell us how long you have been in the office?-Fifteen years.

2792. How were you appointed?—I was appointed by my cousin, or first cousin once removed, Sir Ernest Blake.

80.

2793. Without any examination, of course?-Quite

27930. (Mr. Lenthes.) A medical examination ?— No, not in those days.

2794. (Chairman.) You began in what capacity!--

I was in the shipping office; in those days there was a shipping office and an appointments office all in

one.

27047, You were called what! Had you a name?— I do not remember having any particular title.

2795. (Mr. Gibson.) What rate of pay had you to start with? I had 30s, a week to start with, but in six months time I think I get £90 a year.

27950, (l'hairman.) Your precise position wow is what I am head of the General Stores Department.

2790. And your salary is—?—£175.

2797. You have put in a precis which I think is before the Committee. I will just read out the first paragraph of what you say, and you can tell us any- thing you wish to add to it: "We are convinced that the grant of a fixed scale of pay is very desirable in the interests of the staff, and we trust that the Com mittee will see their way to include such a scale in their recommendations to the Secretary of State. If the Committee have heard sufficient evidence on this point from other witnesses, we do not wish to take up time by offering further evidence on the subject generally, but we wish to emphasise the importance of making the scale of pay of all the first class clerks and of all the second class clerks respectively the SAID..." You mean the same for all the first class clerks and the same for all the second class clerks - That is so

2798, (Nu Francis Moraff.) The same scale or the same salary --The same scale.

2799, (Chairuven.) You go on to say: "In the Inst few years the salaries of men on promotion to the first class have varied from £350 to £600, and to the second class from £195 to £350. We realise that the responsi- bility of posts in the same class varies, but we submit

that the difficulty of fairly assessing this difference has become so great that the time has now arrived when the salaries should be placed on a common basis on the usual Civil Service lines." Before you say any more I wish you would tell us how far you have the agreement of the rest of the staff?-With regard to the point of putting the salaries on the sante basis!

2800. Yes, the whole of this, especially putting in on the same basis as the usual Civil Service lines. How did you consult the members of your staff ?—We had various meetings on the subject and I cannot say that we have come to any decision as to whether it would be desirable to be included in the Civil Service altogether, even if we had the opportunity of being so included, but what we want is that we should i treated in the same way as the Civil Service in regard to pay, that is to say, that the present, what i may call without imputing anything, personal way of dis- tributing the salaries, might be removed and au impersonal way substituted.

esul. You want to know where you are --That i about it.

2802. That the salary should attach to the post and not to the man? That is just the point.

2403. 1. again come back to this; you speak of this as "we submit." Did you have a meeting ?—Thi- memorandum was sent in, because I did not expect personally to attend at all, and so we thought it better to write in the plural.

2011. Who was "we?"-- · We" represent nine out of 11 of the clerical staff of the first and second cla clerks.

2015, 3. Bailey.) As distinguished from the pro fessional staff ?--You,

28083. What about the remaining five?--We may g little further than they do, but substantially we are un I had a talk this morning with the chief agreement. clerk, and we practically think the same.

2907. Mr. Antrobus, do you mean?—Yes. 2808. You represent nine people who are “we ? ''- Yes,

2809. And the five are they?"-Yes; the others may not go so far as we do, but we consider that the way we put this memorandum was the best way of putting the case before the Committee.

2810. (Mr. Bailey.) Am I correct in assuming that the nine of you are the nine clerical members of the staff -All clerical.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. HERBERT F. 13.

21. And the live are all professional ?—No, there are 19 altogether.

2×12. (Mr. Gibon.) The other five are clerical also? -Yes, there are 14 clerical and 5 professional,

2×13, (Chairman.) That applies to all this memor. antum --Ye

2814. (Sir Albert Spicer.) There is a minority of five who do not go quite so far as the nine-As far as I know, yes.

2-15. Do they prefer rather more the present regula- Cons-All they say is that they are quite satisfiel with what Mr. Antrobus has said to you this morning. 216. (Mr. Louthes,) He speaks for them in some measure?--Y.

17. So that with his views and yours we have the view of the whole 11 before us--Yes.

818. (Mr. Harris.) You represent the advanced section - If you like to put it in that way.

2519. (Chairman.) Then, secondly, you say: "Wa ask that the seniority of the present holders of the posts should be defined"; do you mean right up to The top-I think the illustration will explain what

I mean.

To illustrate this point we take an 29920. You say: actual case: X, B. C and D were successively pro moted to class 11. over the head of E. Some few years later. E is promoted to class II. at such a salary as to make him senior to A, B, C and D). It will be readily maderstood that in a class containing a clerical staff of only eight such a variation of the seniority seriously We urge affects the prospects of A, B, C and D. therefore that if a scale is granted, the present staff should enter the senle at the salary they would have reached if the scale had been in existence at the time of their appointment. We believe that this is not a

Could you unusual procedure in the C'ival Service," tell us any more about that'

9921. (M. fiibson.) That is the main point in which you are rather in advance of the other five ?---Possibly. (Sir Francis Monraft,) I should like to under- Several gentlemen stand exactly what the point is, were appointed out of the class into another over the head of a man who remained in the class below ?—Yes. 23. And he subsequently is appointed into the satte class as they were promoted to, and is appointed practically over their heads?--Yes.

221. If that is so, I do not see how it affects any- bly's chance, that is to say, if the promotion from class to class is wholly without reference to seniority his in no better position for subsequent promotion by being put over the heads of the men who were put ver his head?--This is, of course, assuming that u scale is granted; if a scale is granted and everybody remains an fhe seniority they now hold, the present man E will be ma better position than A, B, C and D.

235. (ar. Gilsun.) Qui salary 1—Quả Balary. 2-26. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) But quá promotion, if promotion is to be wholly by merit, as I presume would be concluded in this case, he would not be in any letter position for promotion?-If, we will say, in five or six years' time, a post becomes vacant, you tight say that E is the senior man and he is good engh for the post and therefore he should have it.

2827. (Mr. Gibson.) Why is he the senior man?— Because his salary happens to make him the senior.

2828. Is it governed by salary? Is it not governed by date of promotion No, it is governed by salary

al prosent.

2899. (Mr. Leathes.) Dove seniority matter at all? I should say that the result of what happened in this case was that A, B, C. D. and E were all equal as regards seniority, although some hai had the al- vantage at one time and some at another. but they all came to be dealt with equally eventually 7-E is senior to A. B. (^, and D), in' faet.

2630. When you come to deal with promotion to a certain post, you will not go by seniority?-Seniority counts, other things being equal.

2831. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) The example you have gion shows that it does not.—What I mean to slow

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20 July 1908.

is that the principle upon which promotion goes now is that the senior man is considered; if he is suit able he is promoted and they would not consider the claims of the other men who were previously consi- dered superior to him.

2832. (Mr. Gibson.) That arrangement is rather different to the Civil Service procedure?-Quite.

2839. Because this man, E, has four times been superseded, but, by some means or another, he hus been in the meantime in another grade getting a higher rate of pay than the men in the class above, s that when he is promotes to the higher grade, he recovers his seniurity and becomes senior to the four men who superseded him before: that is not the custom in the Civil Service.—So i should imagine."

2834. (Chairman.) This is just one isolated case, I take it, which is a concrete and actual case 7-1t is an actual cast.

2835. That is why you are concerned to put it for ward now, because it is an actual case now existing. What you want to do, quite briefly, is to ensure that this jump forward of the man. E. should not count to his advantage, assuming that this Committee were to recommend, and the Secretary of State were to approve, the creating of posts 7-Yes.

2836. In fact, that he should go back to where he was before, below A, B, C, and D-Yes, because he has got to that position owing to the somewhat ano- malous system of giving salaries which now exists.

2837. I do not think we should go into that, be- cause it is really a detail?--Very well.

2838. (Mr. Leathes.) Are there any other privileges attaching to seniority besides the superior chance of promotion-the choice of times for leave, or some thing of that kind-That is not of much importance as there are only two men in each department of the 1. and 11. ciasses.

2839. (Nir Albert Spicer.) You told us that the claims of A, B, C. and D were not considered when E was put over their heads, but can you tell whether their claims were considered or not?-No, I did not say that the claims of A, B, C, and D were not con- Bidered.

2840. (Chairman.) Your third point is: "With regard to the question of increase of pay generally, the work appears to be similar to, and of a no less responsible nature than the work transacted in the Supply and Accounts Departinent of the Admiralty And the India Office. The value of the stores bought and of the funds handled may not be as large as in those Departments of the State, but the work is com plicated by the fact that in the Civil Service the Do- partment is the controlling authority, whereas our principals are scattered all over the globe, and each have the right to demand, and do demand, that their separate interests be considered. The care and know- ledge necessary for the correct and punctual execu- tion of our work is, we submit, greater than in Departments in which the variety of requirensents Each can be confined to reasonable dimensions. Colony necessarily has its own rules for packing. marking, and shipment of stores. its own patterns, its own methods of accounting, and its own arrange. ments for many other purposes. The Crown Agents endeavour to impart as much uniformity to the work as possible, but the difference must continue to exist to a large extent, as they have no power to insist on "; and for that reason you come hero uniformity to say that there ought to be an increase of pay- Yes.

2841. An increase on your present pay? Yes,

9842. On the ground that it compares less favourably with the similar departments in the Admiralty and the India Office? Yes.

2×43. For the reasons you state here? Yes.

2841. You say that the work is more difficult. You say also that the Crown Agents endeavour to thipart "as much uniformity to the work as possible, but have

no power to insist upon it - That is s

9845. Do they try to insist? No, they have no power to insist. Krhaps I might give you an 15. stance which I showed to Mr. Leathes when he was

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