PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference --
C.O.8
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ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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22 June 1908.)
806. No, we do not?
CROWN AĠENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir H. A. BLAKE, G,C.M.G,
807. (Sir Finncis Mowatt,) With regard to the wn Agents themselves, there is such a control? - I take it it is absolutely necessary that you should retain a complete control not only as to the appoint- ment. hat as to the reinoval of the Crown Agent at a moment's notice •
208, (Chairman.) That is your view?--Certainly, If he is your business well. I take it you will continue him, but if he do~ not do his business w11 like any other commercial arrangement, you will dismiss him.
So, 1 do not know what your namesake would say to that I do not know either,
810. De you know anything about the scale of salaries in the othie-No, I do not.
11. And you have no suggestions to make; it has never come before your notice !—Never.
ke to the question.
I have never
12 Here is a point I should be glad of your opinion upon. You know that the present plan is that the salaries and pensions of the Crown Agents are paid out of a fund raised from commissions upon the transactions which they do?-I knew.
13. And which has now produced a reserve fund of large amoBILL. Do you think it would be better to continue that plan (and of course this will have a bearing upon what public opinion is like in these Crown Colonies), or I have an alternative plan, that the share of each Colony of the expenses of the Crown Agents might be fixed in some other manner and voted by the Colonial Legislature, as for instance is the case with the joint emigration agencies for several Colonies, or the cost of the staff of the Colonial Audit affic. There you vode a ertain sum? --Yes.
814. And in this alternative ease you might vote a certain sum for the expense of the Crown" "Agents" Cff In my opinion you can get at the matter from a different point of view. You say there is a large reserve at the present moment arising from the ranmissions. Well, it is evident that you are charging too much commission, and I think it would bar received with great gratitude by the Crown Colonies. if you were able to announce that. having negard to the volume of business, vou find that the Crown Agent bable to alo his business for a smaller percentage, To that way you meet everybody's view.
815. (M). Harris) But that does not quite touch the Chairman's point, if you will allow me: I rather think that the point he had in his mind was, the question whether it would be better to continue the Commission system or to divide up the expenses and Bay to Jaunien or Ceylon, wherever it might bơ: ** There is £3,000 of a contribution to the Crown Agents; will you vote that "2. No. I think it woul be much better to continue the commission and pay for what you get. You will find inevitably that there will be considerable discontent in certain Colonies,
$16. If you were to vote a large sum? Yes,
$17. (Sir Francis Moratt.) Yon even might mat get your vote ? Of coury, there are all the possibili- ties; you have certain legislatures, for instance, where you have got obeteil members to deal with, and where they are in a majority. Take Jamnion, if von huse the elected members against it you will have the Governor having to declare it a matter of urgency,
818. (Chairman.) It is understood that the pensions and the scale of pay in the Crown Agents' Office are not only more than in the case of corresponding posts in the Civil Servies here, but more than the correspond- ing posts are paid in the Crown Colonies Civil Service. which corresponds approximately to ours?--But are they more than would be paid for effectual service in private firms?
519. That I do not know, but certainly we have had evidence to show that they are higher than they are in the two enser I have mentioned the Civil Service either in the Crown Colonies or her. I wish to ask you whether you thought that advisable? I take it that the Crown Agents speaking generally (I do not know the details of the Office), is divided into two
classes of men, one class of experts or semi-experts, and the other the clerical staff, and I take it that when you come to the experts you have to pay very highly, as I know to my cost in the various Colonies. If the Crown Agents are to choose their men well the probability is that by paying a little more they may g exceptionally good men, but I see no reason at the present moment why their clerks should be paid more than the clerks n the Civil Service for ordinary clerical work. I take it you have control of that as you have control of the commission; if you felieve the Colonies of the payment of 1 per cent. and make it less they cannot do more than pay what their com mission enables them to do.
820. It is more the pensions than the pay really in which the discrepancy arises. That does not seriously affect your auswer? No, I know nothing about the pensions they give, and really the question is whether the pensions are too large or whether the Civil Service pensions are too small.
821. The last question I have down is one about which I think you have special knowledge, as to the liability of the Crown Agents for any error or mistake in the conduct of their business, What views are held about that The general view held is that the Crown Agents are personally liable themselves as Crown Agents if they make a mistake themselves. I am sure any Colony would be extremely dissatisfied if they found there was no responsibility resting upon any. holy, and I think the Crown Agents in the event of a mistake which ought to have been avertest, ought to be liable.
822. (Sir Francis Moratt.) Might I suggest the case of a contractor failing, where you could hardly say there was a direct neglect or omission on the part of the Crown Agent; but say that a contractor carrying out public work fails, of course, taking up the contract again and finishing it is sure to be done at greatly in- creased expenditure: would you hold that to be a ground on which the Crown Agens should be liable for the money lust to the Colonies !--Certainly not.
823. Only in ense of proved neglect ?- I only hold that they should be liable for any miscarriage throngli their own neglect, and nothing further
824. (Sir Albert Spicer.) May I ask you what you mean by personally liable? Do you mean that the loss should be paid out of their own salaries or out of the capital funds or reserve funds which are contributed to by all the Colonies?—I think the loss ought to be paid out of the reserve fund primarily; I do not think you could come down on the Crown Agents themselves.
825. So that it is not really personal responsibility. but if they make a blunder with regard to Jamaica the reserves of all the Colonies should pay the loss?—Yes. it boils down to that. I should not advoente its being paid out of their salaries; that is too big a measure. You might have a mistake that would cust more than the Crown Agents' salary.
826. That does not seem to me to be personal respon sibility. The Crown Agent would suffer. Let us assume for a moment that a large sum had to be paid out of that fund--the Crown Agent would suffer in his reputation, and there would be a very serions loss of reputation.
927. I am not assuming that they should pay, but I wanted to discover what you meant by personal respon- sibility ---I meant the responsibility qua Crown Agent --that to the extent of whatever funds are in his hands the Colony ought not to be damnified in consequence of his mistake.
$28. (Chairman.) You know, of course, in Jamaica. I think just after you left, such a case did arise, and the Crown Agents view with great disfavour the dec sion come to that they were liable, in fact, wo hal very emphatic views expressed on the subject in this room What was the liability?
$29. It was not a very large amount, in connection with a railway which probably commenced in your time I know all about the railway.
830. But you have no personal knowledge of the question to which I refer? I had a very low know ledge of that railway at the beginning."
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sir H. A. BLAKE, G,C.M.G.
831. But of the circumstances under which an amount became payable by the Crown Agents' Di part- ment -- do not know about that case; that was after left. Nothing occurred during my term in Jumnien in reference to the railway as regards the Crown Agents. From time to time there were complaints of certain things supplied not being in exact accordance with the indent and so on, art all these things 1 thought were very satisfactorily explained by the Crown Agents. These indents are not always prepared with as much care as they might be in the Colonies. 1 met hardly tell you that in the office of the Director of Public Works there are sometimes mistakes made and everybly is very angry when the mistake is on
ur side of the water.
39. The last question I should like to ask you is on we have asked of all witnesses who have been good enough to come here; what general recommendations, if any, should you wish to mnko ta the Committee for improving in any way the system of the Crown Agents do not know that theoretically there is anything I see that could improve the way in which they do their work. When the Crown Agents receive an indent I take it that they have got a considerable number of capable firms among whom they call for tomb rs. There the Crown Agent is responsible to the Colony for the quality of the goods that have been ezd mål exempt he is specially told that the Colony does not require examination. In that event the Crown Agent is prepared. I understand, to place an order wherever he is toll, at the same time with tho reservation that he says: "I deny and disclaim any responsibility for the quality of these goods; 1 will ples the order wherever you like, but I disclaim esponsibility except you order me to examine before the goods ne sont," In many cases the Colonies dis- pense with these examinations; they think it is not worth the expense, I think that is a very good system an in the event of any mistake being made l ́have "never known the Crown Agents to refuse to accept responsi- laisty, or to eliget to meeting it right, there are com- plaints undoubtedly of delay, and I have often thought where the delay might be obviated, but as long a* the protective system exists that duys exist at present with refrence to the Crown Agents when articles are ordered for the Colonies, you cannot avoid these delays. You insist upon things being got in England; I do not say wh the it is right or wrong, but you do insist upon 1, for instales, wanted a couple of motor cars in Ceylon as I wanted to establish' a motor-eur traffe instead of the lumbering mail-conel an 1 bullock-cart, and I found I could not get a instor car within less than eighteen months or two years, lewause they wore full up with orders. It was impossible.
it
813. Why? Because they had more orders here. than they coubl excente, I understand; 18 months was stated as the period but I could have got these gotor cars down from Bombay within two months. The regulation is that we must get these things at home through the Crown Agents,
83. (Mr. Harrix.) Did you not appeal to the Colonial Office I think you could have got that relaxed od boe,-I am not sure whether I did not appeal: 1 cannot charge my memory at present, but enler 1 wore to the Colonial Offiew or 1 was stopped by it being pointed out that it was absolutely na the law of ile Mods and Persians. Anyhow the delays were explained. Another time I wanted some engines and we were told we could not possibly get engines for a time. I do not say it is wrong, but unhappily the workshops here were full up with work and we could not get a supply. That was not the fault of the Crown Agents. Tu many cases they have to wait on the manufacturers.
835. (Chairman.) Sometimes there is considerable delay Sometimes there is delay which we cannot understand in the Colonies, but which I am bound to sny in every case which has come before me, when a detailed explanation" has been sent by the Crown Agents. I have been satisfied.
53 (Sir Francis Moralt.) I should like to clear up »mething which I do not quite understand. You told us that your first connection with the Crown Agents was an occasion on which they pointed out
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ting the construction of a rattrong in Jamnica in their own hands rather than putting it into the hands of an Americau syndi. ente?—Yes, they showed the advantage.
837. But, as a matter of fact, we have been told that they do not interfere with public works in the Colonies, and that where they canry them out them- selves all they do is to invite tenders or put them into the hails of ther firms? Yes; what ᏙᎥ -- pointed out was not on the principle that it was wrong to give it to the syndicate or a private person, but that the particular arrangement which was passed with reference to the construction of this railway was not a good one for the Colony. It was not as to the principle that it should be in their own hands.
88. (Sir Albert Spicer.) I think you said you had to do with five different Colonies ?--Yes,
899. And that the whole of your experience with the Crown Agents has been satisfactory?—Perfectly,
810. Do I also gather that if you had your way you would give them rather more elasticity; you would keep in your own hands rather more frevilom `for ordering when you choso!-No, I do not think I should give them any mure elasticity; as far as I know the system at the moment is quite sufficiently elastic for all the wants of the Colonies. You have the Crown Agents, who are a semi-independent, simi- commercial body, but still so much under the control of the Colonial Office that any complaint made to the Coloma! (hes immediately receives attention.
811. But you gave the case of the two motor cars, and I wondered if that was simply an illustration of other cases ?—I forget at the present moment whether 1 sent that home or not, su ihat I only mention the matter which is before me, but it may have been, as was pointed out by the Colonial Secretary, that there was no use doing that, as there was a regulation. It was a very satisfactory solution that they had so much work on hand that they could not give us the
cars,
812. Would you say on the whole that we should leave things as they are? Yes; ao far as I know things are as satisfactory as you would get them on any other system.
813. (Chairman.) Except that the Colonies would like the pacentage relucet Certainly; I think that if the preentage is so large that you have a large reserve you do not want, it is not just to the Colonies that you should continue to take that percentage, and I am quite sure that an announcement to the Colonies that you had reduced that percentage would be received with a gratification to which the Secretary of State is not necustomed.
844. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You express no opinion on the tenure or pay or appointment of the staff - Oh, no, I do not know enough about that.
145, (Clairman.) That has not corne under your notice? No.
Shi, 481 Ralph Moor.) With regard to local pur- chase, there are often complaints by commercial firms in Colonies locally that they have in opportunity of tendering for material or stores owing to this rule that everything that comes from Europe must be pur- chawl from the Crown Agents ?—Yes,
847. To you think it would be just to the local people or an advantage to the Government in any way thai that rule should be relaxed 7—Certainly,
xf. That the Government should be allowed to ask for tender- locally? Certainly; I think wherever a temler is called for which allows of sufficient time the band poople of reputation ought to be in a position to put their tenders forward. I am quite clear about thai, but I am rather under the impression that they could do that now.
849. (Chairman) Under special circumstances I believe they can ?—I think they could do that now.
850). But very rarely?—Yes. I know it is possible.
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