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22 June 1908.]

806. No, we do not ?

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir H. A. BLAKE, (1.C.M.G.

807. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) With regard to the Crown Agents themselves, there is such a control?-- I take it it is absolutely necessary that you should retain a complete controf not only as to the appoint- ment, but as to the removal of the Crown Agent at a moment's notice

848, (Chairman.) That is your view?-Certainly. If he do your business well. I take it you will continue him, but if he do not do his business w11 like any other commercial arrangement, you will dismiss him.

SOD. I do not know what your namesake would say to that? -I do not know either.

810. Do you know anything about the scale of salaries in the office?—No, I do not.

811. And you have no suggestions to make; it has never come before your notter?---Never. I have never looked into the question.

12. Here is a point I should be glad of your opinion upon. You know that the present plan is that the salaries and pensions of the Crown Agents are paid out of a fund raised from commissions upon the transactions which they do?-I know.

813. And which has now produced a reserve fund of large amount. Do you think it would be better to continue that plan (and of course this will have a bearing upon what public opinion is like in these Crown Colonies), or I have an alternative plan, that the share of each Colony of the expenses of the Crown Agents might be fixed in some other manner and ynted by the Colonial Legislature, as for instance is the case with the joint emigration agencies for several Colonies, or the cost of the staff of the Colonial Audit Office. There you vote a ertain sum ?--Yes,

811. And in this alternative case you tight vote a certam sum for the expense of the Crown Agents' Office? Tu my opinion you can gt af the matter from a different point of view. You say there is a large reserve at the present moment arising from tluse commissions. Well, it is evident that you are charging too much commission, and I think it would be received with great gratitude by the Crown Colonies if you were able to announce that. having regard to the volume of business, vom find that the Crown Agent is able to do his business for a smaller percentage. In that way you most everybody's view.

815. (Mr. Harris.) But that does not quite tomch the Chairman's point, if you will allow me; I rather think that the point he had in his mind was, the question whether it would be better to continue the commission system or to divide up the expenses and say to Jannien or Ceylon, wherever it might be *There is £3,000 of ʼn contribution to the Crown Agents; will you vote that "No, I think it would be much better to continue the commission and pay for what you get. You will find inevitably that there will be considerable discontent in certain Colonies.

SIA. If you were to vote a large sum? Yes,

$17, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You even night not get your vote?.... Of course, there are all the possibili. ties; yon have certain legislatures, for instance, where you have got elected members to load with, and where they are in a majority. Tako Jamaica, if you have the elected members against it you will have the Governor having to declare it a matter of urgency.

818. (Chairman.) It is understood that the pensions and the scale of pay in the Crown Agents' Office are not only more than in the case of corresponding posts in the Civil Service here but more than the correspond- ing posts are paid in the Crown Colonies' Civil Service. which corresponds approximately to ours? But are they more than would be paid för offectual service in private firms?

819. That I do not know, but certainly we have had evidence to show that they are higher than they are in the two cases. I have mentioned, the Civil Service either in the Crown Colonies or here. I wish to ask you whether you thought that advisable" I take it that the Crown Agents, speaking generally (I do not know the details of the Office), is divided into two

classes of men, one class of experts or semi-experts, and the other the clerical staff, and I take it that when you come to the experts you have to pay very highly, as 1 know to my cost in the various Colonies. If the Crown Agents are to choose their men well the probability is that by paying a little more they may g exceptionally good men, but i see no reason at the present moment why their clerks should be paid more than the clerks in the Civil Service for ordinary clerical work. I take it you have control of that as you have control of the commission; if you relieve the Colonies of the payment of 1 per cent, and take it less they cannot do more than jay what their com- mission enables them to do.

820. It is more the pensions than the pay really in which the discrepancy arises. That does not seriously affect your answer? No, I know nothing about the pensions they give, and really the question is whether the pensions are too large or whether the Civil Service - pensions are too small.”

821. The last question I have down is one about which I think you have special knowlesige, as to the liability of the Crown Agents for any error er mistake in the conduct of their business, What views are held about that ?– The general view held is that the Crown Agents are personally liable themselves as Crown Agents if they make a mistake themselves. I am sure

any Colony would be extremely dissatisfied if they found there was no responsibility resting upon any body, and I think the Crown Agents in the event of a mistake which ought to have been averted, ought to be liable.

822. (Sir Francis Moraft.) Might I suggest the case of a contractor failing, where you could hardly say there was a direct neglect or omission on the part of the Crown Agent; but say that a contractor carrying out public work fails, of course, taking up the contract again and finishing it is sure to be done at greatly in- creased expenditure: would you hold that to be a ground on which the Crown Agenis should be liable for the money lost to the Colonies?--Certainly not.

823. Only in case of proved neglect? I only hold that they should be liable for any miscarriage through their own neglect, and nothing further.

824. (Sir Albert Spicer,) May I ask you what you mean by personally liable? Do you mean that the lens should be paid out of their own salaries or out of the capital funds or reserve funds which are contributed to by all the Colonies?-I think the loss ought to be paid out of the reserve fund primarily do not think you could come down on the Crown Agents themselves.

823. So that it is not really personal responsibility, but if they make a blunder with regard to Jamaica the reserves of all the Colonies should pay the Joss?—Yes. it boils down to that. I should not advocate its being paid out of their salaries; that is to big a measure. You might have a mistake that would cost more than the Crown Agents' salary.

826. That does not seem to me to le personal respon sibility. The Crown Agent would suffer. Let us

assume for a mument that a large sum had to be paid out of that fund-the Crown Agent would suffer in las reputation, and there would be a very serious loss of reputation.

827. I am not assuming that they should pay, but T wanted to discover what you meant by personal respon- sibility? I meant the responsibility que Crown Agent that to the extent of whatever funds are in his hands the Colony ought not to be damnified in consequence of his mistake.

498, (Chairman.) You know, of course, in Jamaica. I think just after you left, such a case did arise, and the Crown Agents view with great disfavour the de- sion come to that they were liable, in fact, we had very emphatic views expressed on the subject in this roon? What was the liability?

820. It was not a very large amount, in connection with a railway which probably commenced in your time I know all about the railway.

830. But you have no personal knowledge of the question to which I refer? I had a very close know- lolge of that railway at the beginning."

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir H. A. BLAKE, GLAMG.

ww

831. But of the circumstances under which amount became payable by the Crown Agents 1 part- ment ?--I do not know about that case; that was after I left. Nothing occurred during my term in Jamaica in referênce to the railway as regards the Crown Agents. From time to time there, were complaints of certain things supplied not being in exact accordance with the indent and so on, but all these things 1 thought were very satisfactorily explained by the Crown Agents. These indents are not always prepared with as much care as they might be in the Colonies. I need hardly tell you that in the office of the Director of Public Works there are sometimes mistakes made and everybody is very angry when the mistake is on our side of the water.

8. The list question I should like to ask you is one we have asked of all witnesses who have been good enotgit to come here: what general recuramen·lations, if any, should you wish to make to the Committee for improving in any way the system of the Crown Agents do not know that theoretically there is anything see that could improve the way in which they do their work. When the Crown Agouts receive an lent I take it that they have got a considerable number of capable firms among whom they call for temtors. There the Crown Agent is responsible to the Colony for the quality of the goods that have been ondråd exept he is sperially told that the Colony das not require examination, In that event the Crown Agent is prepared. I understand, to place an order wherever he is told, at the same time with the reservation that he says: "I deny and disclaim any responsibility for the quality of these goods; I will place the order wherever you like, but diselai responsibility except you order me to examine before the goods are sent.“ In many cases the Colonies dis pens with these examinationis; they think it is not worth the expense. I think that is a very good system and in the event of any mistake being made fhave never known the Crown Agents to refuse to accept responsi- bility, or to object to setting it right. There are com- plaints undoubtedly of delay, nul i have often thought where the delay might be obvigted, but as long as the protective system exists that does exist at present with refrence to the Crown Agents when articles are orderest for the Colonies, you cannot avoid those deinys. You insist upon things being got in England; I do not say whether it is right or wrong, but you do insist upon it. 1. for instañes, wanted a cosiple of motor cars in Ceylon as I wanted to establish a motor-car trafle instead of the lumbering mail-conel an IbuBlock-cart, and I found I combi not get a intor ear within less than eighteen months or two years, beause they were full up with orders. It was impossible.

833. Why? Because they had more orders here than they could execute. I understand; 18 months was stated as the period but I could have got these motor cars down from Bombay within two months. The regulation is that we must get these things at home through the Crown Agents.

834. (Mr. Harris.) Did you not appeal to the Colonial Oflice? I think you could have got that relaxed and hoe. I am not sure whether 1 did not appeal: I cannot chargo my memory at present, but either I wrote to the Polonial Office or I was stopped. by its being pointes out that it was absolutely as the law of the Moles and Persians, Anyhow the delays were explained. Another time I wanted some engines and we were told we could not possibly got engines for a time. 1 do not say it is wrong, but unhappily the workshops here were full up with work and we could not get a supply. That was not the fault of the Crown Agents. In innuy cases they have to wait on the manufacturers,

835. (Chairman.) Sometimes there is considerable deing Sometimes there is delay which we cannot understand in the Colonies, but which I am bound to say in very ease which has entre before me, when altailed explanation has been sent by the Crown Agents, I have been satisfied.

834. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I should like to clear up something which I do not quite understand. You told us that your first connection with the Crown Agents was an occasion on which they pointed out

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120 Jean, 1908.

tigat als urg L it ning the construction of a railroan in Jannica in their own hands rather than putting it into the hands of an American syndi- cate?--Yen, they showed the advantage.

what

Wit's

837. But, as a matter of fact, we have been told that they do not interfere with public works in the Colonies, and that where they carry them out them- selves all they do is to invite tenders or put them int the nets of other firms Yos; pointed out was not on the principle that it was wrong to give it to the syndicate or à private person, but that the particular arrangement which was passed with reference to the construction of this railway was not a good one for the Colony. It was not as to the principle that it should be in their own hands."

838. (Sir Albert Spicer.) 1 think you said you had to do with five different, Colonies? Yes,

830. And that the whole of your experience with the Crown Agents has been satisfactory?-- Perfectly,

810. Do I also gather that if you had your way you would give them rather more elasticity; you would keep in your own hands rather nure freeslom for ordering when you choso! No, I do not think I should give them any more elasticity; as far as 1 know the system at the moment is quite sufficiently elastic for all the wants of the Colonies. You have the Crown Agents, who are a semi-independent, s mi- commercial body, but still so much under the control of the Colonial Office that any complaint made to thes Colonial Office immediately receives attention.

811. But you gave the case of the two motor cars, and I wonderesi if that was simply an illustration of other cases? I forget at the present moment whether 1 sent that home or not, so that I only mention the matter which is before me, but it may have been, as was pointed but by the Colonial Secretary, that there was no use doing that, as there was a regulation. It was a very satisfactory solution that they had so much work on hand that they could not give us the

cars.

812. Would yon say on the whole that wo should leave things as they are? - Yes; so far as I know things are as satisfactory as you would get them on any other systein,

843. (thuismaa) Except that the Colonies would like the pentage relucel! Certainly; I think that if the percentage is so large that you have a large reserve you do not want, it is not just to the Colomes that you should comimic to take thai percentage, and I am quite sure that an announcement to the Colonies that you had roduces that percentage would be revised with a gratification to which the Secretary of State is not accustomed.

844. (Sir Francis Moiratt.) You express no opinion on the tenure or pay or appointment of the staff- Oh, no, I do tat know enough about that.

1945, (Chairman.) That has not come under your notice? No,

810, (8 a Rolph Moon) With regard to Incal pur- chas there are often complaints by commercial firms in Colonies locally that they have no opportunity of temloring for material or stores owing to this rule that everything that comes from Europe must be pur- chased from the Crown Agents ?—Yes,

847. Bu you think it would be just to the local people or an advantage to the Government in any way that that mule should be relaxed?-Certainly.

848. That the Government should be allowed to ask for tenders locally ? · Certainly; I think wherever a tender is enfled for which allows of sufficient time the local people of reputation ought to be in a position to put their tenders forward. I am quite clear about that, but I am rather under the impression that they could do that now.

849. (Chairman.) Under special circumstances I believe they can?—I think thếỷ could do that now,

850. But very rarely?--Yes. I know it is possible.

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