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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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June, 1908.1

CROWNMENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTER:

Sir H. A. BLAKE, G.C.M.G.

851. (Mr. Gibson.) Would most of the Colonies where they obtain local tenders have adequate staff to inspect and test the material?-Oh no, in most of the Colonies they would not. When I speak of the possibility I am only speaking of the possibility where you have large firms as you have in Ceylon; you have very large engineering firins there who inight tender if necessary, but in a great many of the Crown Colonies especially you would not have such firms, and the question would not arise,

$52. That is one of the main reasons why these orders are centralized through the Crown Agents, that they have an adequate and capable body of inspectors? Yes, they have an adequate staff of inspectors who

really understand the examination of such things as pipes and so on; you could not get these examined abroad, and there is no means of doing it.

854. With regard to your general satisfaction with the present method of the conduct of the business by the Crown Agents and their quasi-independent con- stitution, would the view of the Colonies be against their being brought closer into contact with the Cabnial Office in the nature more of a Government Department 7-1 think it would,

854. It would be against such a step?-Yes, they think they can kick more freely in the present posí-

tion.

The witness withdrew,

Adjourned to Wednesday next ut 10,389 o'clock.

FIFTH DAY,

Wednesday, 24th June, 1908.

At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.

PRESENT:

COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.O., M.P'. (Chairman).

The Rt. Hon. Sir F. Mowart, G.C.B., 1.8.0.

Sir RALPH Moon, K.C.M.G.

H. J. GIBSON, Esq., C.B.

R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., 1.8.0. S. M. LEATHEs." Esq.

0. A. HARRIS, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.

A. J. HARDING (Secretary),

Sir F. A. >Wettextam, K.C.M.G., called and examined.

855. (Chairman.) You have been good enough to give us a precis of the points on which you wish to give evidence. Would you liko to make any general remarks first of all as to the Crown Agonis, apart from those points on which you wish to give evidence, or would you like to go through them one by one?—Ï think that would perhaps be better.

856. The first point you wished to bring to our notice was the quality and comparative cost of the goods_supplied. * Will you first tell us how long experience you have had of dealing with the Crown Agents -Thirty years.

857. Mostly in the Far East 7—Always.

858. Can you tell us about the quality and com- parative cost of the goods supplied, especially in recent years?--I do not think it would apply to any particular time any statement I should make. I think the quality of the goods supplied is always very gol, and the prices I think are practically as low as Jou ran got. There are exceptions, of course, but, speaking generally, I think the Crown Agents, as far as my experience goes, have done better for the

Government than any private firm could or would have done.

859. As to the method of inviting tenders from English rins, what have you to say?—I think the Crown Agents are too limited; they seem to have some friends whom they make a list of, and they ask those particular people to send in tenders. I think they would do better if they invited the public to lender.

It

160, (Sir Francis Mowall.) Without a list at all you mean-to put it out to open tender?—Yes. might be very difficult, of course, in a country like this to ask for open tenders; 1 do not think it would be impossible, and in any case I think that their list of people is too limited. 1 think it is a mistake, because it has been said to me by people who wero more or less in the business that the Crown Agents invited such a small number of people to tender that those people were able to meet together and agree what kind of tender they would send in, so that they would take it in rotation always, and one firm one time would put in the lowest tender, and then one the next time, and one after the other they would each get the order.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir F. A. SwETTENHAM, K.C.M.G.

861. (Chairman.) You toll us just now that you thought the comparative cost in that respect was good, and that they had done better than any private firm would have done?-Yes, that, I should explain, refers to the sort of things which I could go and order myself and should know about, but when I spoke of the firms that they ask to tender I was think- ing more of things like locomotives, steel rails, and things of that kind, where it is worth people's while to combine.

862. Really big orders?—Yes; but the reason I say that the Crown Agents do well is because I have testel it by going to a private firm, showing them a sample of something the Crown Agents had supplici and saying, “What will you supply us with this for?" and they have quoted a higher price.

863. You have done that more than once?—Yes. I think for things like drugs, clothing and things of that sort, the Crown Agents do extraordinarily well. I remember an instance where they supplied some type for printing, and the printer we had, who had been at it all his life, said he did not believe it was possible to supply it at the price. When the invoice arrived and he saw the price, he said: "When we get this stuff it will not be of any use at all," but when it came he was obliged to admit that it was quite good. I think when it comes to big things that when yon ask only half-a-dozen firms to send in a tenler for six or seven or a dozen locomotives, or so many miles of steel rails, and things that run into very large sums of money, the Crown Agents go to too few people.

861. You think they would make a better bargain if they went to more?—Yes, I think if they invited ten- ders from people generally they would find an improve. ment. I have often looked at the tenders; for in- stance, if you order half a dozen locomotives, they will send you à list of perhaps live firms whom they have asked to tender for the locomotives. There will be a difference, perhaps, of hundreds, oven of thousands of pounds, in these five tenders.

$65. (Mr. Gibson.) That is rather against your argu- ment that there is a ring, is it not ?—No, I do not think it is. bcause I think that is a matter of arrange- ment.

868. (Sir Francis Muratt,) Still, it would attraet attention if a man tendered for five locomotives at one price which was very low one year and next year tendered for some other service extremely high, as wm- pared with the rest of what we may call the ring for the moment. the Crown Agents could hardly help noticing that 7--There is always an answer to that.

867. If Jones, Brown and Robinson were tendering and Jones got it the first time with a low tender. others being high. Brown the next year probably and Robinson the next, the Crown Agents could hardly fail to notice that ? Quite true, but as to different prices at different times, they will always tell you that the est of materials has varied enormously, and that is the fact. The price of steel rails, for instance, varies Very much.

808. My point is that the materials would be the same for the three firms tendering!--8o they would. but they can always find an excellent excuse. One of the points is that you have to supply within a given time. One firm will say that they will supply your locomotives within twelve months, perhaps, and an- other not for 2 years, so that they can always arrange it so that you have not only to think of the lowest price, but that you want it in a hurry.

889. (Sir Ralph Mour.) Of course, and the rate of temler a firm puts in is always decided to a certain extent by the amount of work they have in hand?— Yes, they will tell you so

970. You get a tremendous variation on that ground in these tenders for that clasa of work, such as focomo- tives, stool rails, and so on?--Yes, I am quite sure that the Malay States, for instance, have paid enormous differences in price for things like steel rails, and they simply say to you, "That happens to be the price now,

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*24 Jour 1908.

they want so many site! rails in South Africa, and therefore you have to pay the price now."

871. (Mr. Bailey.) Still, taking all these circum- stances into account, you are of opinion that the list of persons invited to tender is somewhat too limited 7- I am very strongly of that view,

872, (Mr. Gibro,) You would be in favour of every competent firm being on the list and being invited to tender when any orders are being places, as is the case at the War Office and the Admiralty?—Yes.

873. (Chairman.) I supposo that is nominally the case with the Crown Agouts, that any respectable firm can apply to be put on the list, but what happens, do you know? I dồ not think that is so, 1 can quote a case, but I do not wish that to be reported, as I think I should hardly be justified in repeating the facts for publication. Speaking generally, I understand that when the Crown Agents put a firm on their list they expected them to make good, without charge, any defects reported by the Colony which gave the order, if the Crown Agents themselves were satisfied that the complaint was established. That is hardly business.

871, There is something to be said both ways, of course?—Yes, still, if you or I were dealing with anybody and we simply made the statement that something had hoen broken on the way, and that we considered that their packing was bad, we could not expect that the thing that had been broken would replaced from of charge, but I understand generally (and I am only speaking under the impression I gathervil from what was said to me) that the Crown Agents consider that if they tell a firm that they consider the cas› is against them, that firm shoul make whatever has been damaged good free of charge, and if they do not like these terms th· Crown Agents. id not want to have them on their list.

875. (Mr. tiibson.) There was no question of arbi- tration ---No.

876, Toy object to any outside interference?—Yes, there is never ány question of arbitration.

877. (Chairman.) Brondly speaking, the impression formed is that they are somewhat too autocratic ?— Yes, they are limited, because they wish to be auto- cratic, you say I have known a great many cases myself where I have had to make a repro sentation at the request of some Government official to the Crown Agents that something has not arrivel or something has been broken. I think myself, that very often the fault is out in the colony, they are not suffi riently careful there, and very often I think a firm may be called upon to replace something which they have been told was not sent, which really did go, and sometimes it is found afterwards. You see the Crown Agents say to them:" We are satisfied with this complaint which has come from the colony and you must make it right." and they do make it right.

STA. With regard to the system of carrying out works in the colonies under the advies atpl cîntrol of consulting engineers, you wish to give some evidence?

I think that is quite wrong.

878. You think that is wrong altogether?-Also- Intely wrong.

879. The system of carrying out the works?—Yes.

990, Would you tell us why?—I think that is wrong in the case where the colony has got qualified allivers to d with the work. I think it stands to reason that it must be wrong. The system that is emplyed through the Crown Agents and the consult- ang engineers is that the consulting engineers become is sponsible for the work nominally. They undertake the work; they appoint an engifer to do it; they make a contract with him and the Government of thony has no voice in the matter whatever, ex-

git to pay all the bills.

1 Describe to us just what would, happen in a particular cases Where do the consulting engineer Come in and who appoints him? Let us say that you want to make a bridge or a railway in the Straits Settlements ?—Suppose you want to make a