PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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C.O.885
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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
4
12 June 1008.]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir E. BLAKE.
kind of clerk for it; in fact, when 1 have been applied to, as I have been from time to time, by a considerable number of young University men, I have had to say to them There is really no opening in our office for you have to begin practically at the bottom; we cannot put you in a position where there is high work to be done, and you would find yourselves doing work at which these Board School boys would beat you abso- lutely." They would walk round the University men at that sort of work; their education is so very much better fitted for it.
24. I think the Committee would probably like to know what is the method of appointment of all these people in your office?--I have told you, Sir.
25. You have bold us about the Lower Division clerks, Class IV. 7-We have ceased recruiting for the Upper Establishment.
26. Do they all go in at the bottom, then 1-Of late years they have all
gone in at the bottom.
27. And they will gradually work up, although not to the top-lf they are fit, but if they are not fit we should then exercise our discretion and say, "There is no man in the Lower Division sufficiently fit for pro- motion, and we will get a man from outside."
28. I think the Committee would like to know how they are all selected. To begin with the Crown Agents; they are, of course, appointed by the Secre- tary of State-Yes,
29. So much for the three Crown Agents at the top; it is entirely in the discretion of the Secretary of State to appoint them, and he may appoint anybody? That
is so.
30. It is not confined to any particular class of Civil Servant? No, and he might ruin the office at any moment by appointing an unsuitable man.
31. However, that did not happen ?—No.
32. The tenure of the Crown Agent's office is during the Secretary of State's pleasure, is it not?-No, it has never been laid down, and I should say that there is no restriction on the tenure.
33. You think they are more in the position of a rector of a parish-irremovable ?--Or a judge. I think if a Crown Agent misbehaved himself, undoubtedly he could be dismissed, but if he does his duty I think his tenure is absolute.
34. Of course the two are different; a judge can be removed by an Address from both Houses. Only on misbehaviour.
35. The rector cannot be removed even then, but you do not know as to the Crown Agent?-It has never been raised.
36. That is a point that should be known. As to the secretary, he receives a large salary, does he not ?- Yes.
wicked decision; we were held responsible for a mis take made by one of our consulting engineers, no mistake of our own. 1 can speak very strongly, because I had nothing to do with the business myself. The consulting engineer disregarded his estimate, and there was an excess of about 2000, and we, out of our ollice fund, had to make this compensation up, so that it was a inonstrous decision.
40. That is to say it is your responsibility for the funds of the office, not personal responsibility; I wanted just to know exactly where it stood-whero the "personal" came in and where the office came in? -You must remember we are dependent on office fund for our incomes and for our pensions, and any Secretary of State, if he dealt with it in an arbitrary way, could cut away the revenue of the office, The office is absolutely dependent on its office
fund.
our
41. (Mr. Bailey.) The existence of the office pre- supposes that there must be an office fund, does it not?—It is a self-supporting institution, and obviously if it lives from hand to mouth it can never pension its staff, and it cannot have anything to meet fluctuations in work. It is absolutely necessary that there should be something of the kind. Of course, if it is turned into a Government office the whole thing drops, but so long as it is an independent institution there must be something of the nature of an office fund.
42. ('hairman.) The whole thing is very compli. catedIt is very complicated.
43. And unusual, too, is it not?-It is absolutely unique, I believe.
4. You say "independent," but in a way it is not independent, because if the Secretary of State chose to cut off the funds he could do it to-morrow?-Ho could; he could destroy the office to-morrow. Of course, there would be vested rights, but apart from that he could destroy the office to-morrow.
45, (Mr. Harris.) That being so, may I ask for the ground of your belief that a Crown Agent is in such an absolutely strong position as you put just now, namely, that he cannot be removed? If the Secretary of State could destroy the whole office by a word, would you give us the ground of your belief that the Crown Agents, apart from the office, are irremovable? The position is that the Crown Agent is appointed to discharge certain functions, no limit is given to his tenure of office, and I think the Secretary of State would have to justify any removal of a Crown Agent.
46. Does it not really come to what the Chairman said, that it is absolutely at the pleasure of the Secre tary of State?-I think not; I think it is during good behaviour.
47. (Chairman.) I suppose your appointment is made by some document?-Simply a letter of appoint-
ment.
48. And apparently, so far as you know, it has never been settled on what terms the appointment is? -No.
37. (Mr. Gibson.) Under what circumstances have Crown Agents in the past retired or been pensioned?— They have always expressed a desire to go on pension," the age limit for retiring, and the pension to be and I may say that it is no bed of roses.
38. (Sir Albert Spicer.) What do you mean exactly by "personal responsibility"? You do not mean financial responsibility --When I speak of “personal Mr. responsibility" I am speaking of the office. Chamberlain laid down, or rather be did not quite lay down, but he went as far as to say that he was dis- posed to lay down, that the Crown Agents could be held as responsible for their work as any private agent would be that is to say, that if there were a mis- management of the work and any case would lie for compensation against private agent it should lie against the Crown Agent.
30. But that has never been done?-I am sorry to say it has. Mr. Chamberlain held as personally responsible for a mistake made by a consulting en- gineer. It was a most monstrous case, and I only wish the Committee would investigate it. Nothing would delight me more than that the correspondence should be published in Parliament. It was the most
49. And the office itself has settled the rules as to
received; is that sol-No.
50. With the approval of the Secretary of State 7-- With the approval of the Secretary of State.
51. (Sir Ralph Moor.) It would be as well to ascer tain how that age and pension compares with the general Civil Service-Will not that come in in con. nection with the staff? I think the position you must take is that the Crown Agents must always occupy a very anomalous position. They are men appointed by the Secretary of State, chosen presumably (at any rate they ought to be) because he thinks they are it for their duties. It is extremely improbable that these men will ever desire to stay on after they have lost their efficiency. It seems to me that it is not a practical question.
(Chairman.) I think it is a most practical question.
52. (Sir Ralph Moor.) It is simply how the rule compares with the rule in the Civil Service --Wich regard to age and pension?
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sir E. BLAKE
53. Yes. The question of a pension is absolutely a matter for the Secretary of State to settle.
54. (Chairman.) And it is settled now; you have that paper here giving the salaries and pension of ail the staff?--I do not quite follow you.
55. We had a paper put in prepared by you, show- ing the salaries of the staff --We send the Secretary of State such a list of things; they are reported to him in case he wishes to raise any objection.
56. In reply to Sir Ralph Moor's question, you would say that the amount of salary and pension} -Is entirely a matter between the Secretary of State and the Crown Agents.
57. And has been fixed by him in the past 7-Yos. 58. But with regard to the age limit for retiring, it hus never been raised?—It has never been raised.
59. This is an obscure point?-It has never been raised.
6. The tenure of the appointment of the Crown Agents is in this respect quite uncertain.
Was
He was
61. (Sir Ralph Moor.) What is the fact as to the cases which have occurred 7--They have always retired somewhere about 60. Sir Penrose Julyan, the first Crown Agent, was somewhere about 60. desirous of taking directorships. The next man, Sir William Sargeaunt, retired on the ground of ill-health, Ommanney, Montagu and my predecessor, Sir
I am to the Colonial Office. transferred rapidly approaching the age when I shall certainly wish to go. It is
to be no pleasure to worried; I do not like it, and it is not good enough. If the Secretary of State were to express the desire that a Crown Agent should not remain after he was 6 which, I believe, is the rule of the Civil Service, I do not think any Crown Agent would raise the least difficulty.
me
12. (Chairman.) But, as far as you know, there is no rule as to that?-No.
3. It has, in point of fact, worked well, because we know that the Crown Agents in recent years have been gentlemen of the highest position, and these diffi- culties have never arisen?-And are never likely to arise.
61. But you must understand that it is a very material and interesting point, because you told us that there was once somebody to be appointed who you thought would be very unsuitable for the position?
Yes.
65. So that it is well we should consider what would occur in less fortunate circumstances than those we now find ourselves in 7-Yes.
66. (Mr. Harris.) The case might have come?--Yes, and then I should have acted in the autocratic manner I mentioned.
67. You can understand the appointment of an in- efficient colleague, and you yourself might have been desirous to put in force some rule by which you could have shot him out?—Yes.
68. (Chairman.) What would you have done then ?— The inefficient men first of all as a rule begin at the bottom, so that I think the age limit might be of no
use.
69. What limit is there?-I am afraid none except that we will hope that Secretaries of State in the future, as they have in the past, will have a sense of responsibility and will consider that it would be a most immoral action to appoint a man to the position of Crown Agent who is not fit for the post. That is all I
can say.
70. Still, a man might become inefficient and there is no known method of getting rid of him?—No.
71. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Except by granting him con. tinuous leave?-Yes; in fact, the head of the office would have to act autocratically and say: "I cannot prevent your drawing your salary, but you certainly shall not do the work and get your colleagues into trouble."
[12 June 1998.
5
72. (Mr. Harris.) Supposing that the Crown Agents had somebody whom the Secretary of State thought undesirable, do you think the Secretary of State could go to the Crown Agents and say: "You must part with that man"-But you see the Crown Agents do not settle the question as to the appointment of the Crown Agents themselves.
73. But with regard to the staff-As regaris the staff undoubtedly.
74. Could not the Secretary of State come and say: "You must get rid of him "7-No, because he would take our responsibility; he might express the opinion: "I am of opinion that you ought to get rid of him.
"I
think that is quite open to him to do, but I think if he said, "You must," it would be taking our responsibi-
lity. He could say: "I think you ought to," just as with regard to these salaries and things he might say: "I think you are giving an excessive salary to so-and-
80.
75. I wanted to know whether you admitted any power on the part of the Secretary of State to inter- fere between the Crown Agent and the staff —No, in principle I do not. I think it is cutting at the very root of the office. Our staff are our staff; they are responsible to us and we are responsible for them. The Secretary of State does not know our staff; he simply knows the Crown Agents; and that will be the gist of my whole evidence, that there are two courses open, either to turn the office into a Government office and then, of course, anything can be done, or leave the per- sonal responsibility of the Crown Agents for their The office is regulated all round on very much stricter lines than any Government office; it is much more like a mercantile institution, and we must have very great power of control over our staff if the work is to be done thoroughly; for instance, if a clerk be- haves in a way we think deserving of censure we do not hesitate to suspend an increment, or we should not hesitate to reduce his salary.
staff.
76. (Chairman.) And what right of appeal is there? -He can appeal to the Secretary of State; if he asked: "Can I appeal to the Secretary of State?" my answer would be: "Certainly you can appeal to the Secretary of State."
77. He cau?-Certainly he can appeal, but I should say to the Secretary of State: "If you interfere with our discretion, unless you are sure we have done very wrong, you are taking our responsibility upon your- self."
78. (Sir Ralph Moor.) 1 take it you go as far as dis- missal 7-Certainly.
79. That is to say, you go beyond censure?-Cer- tainly; I should dismiss a clerk and not ask the Secre- tary of State's authority for it; it is essential that it should be so.
80. (Chairman.) This is all very interesting, and it is what we are here to inquire into; before we leave the position of the Crown Agents themselves, I think we have ascertained all there is to ascertain except that we have not seen the form of the original appointment of a Crown Agent?-You could get that from the General Department of the Colonial Office. I have my letter somewhere, but where I cannot say.
81. If it could be found it would be desirable to have it? In the General Department there will be records of them.
82. Now we are going on to the relations between the Crown Agents themselves, the head Crown Agent, yourself for the moment, and the staff below. You told us how the clerks were appointed at the bottom, and I may say that the principle of the thing is that they all work up from the bottom 7-Yes, except that these Lower Division or fourth-class clerks will certainly never get promotion out of that class unless they show exceptional ability.
83. And if there are not enough of them of sufficient capacity you will appoint direct to one of the higher posts?--If in the future say an appointment occurred in the third class, which we call section heads, and there was no suitable man in the fourth class. we should unquestionably recruit from the outside, but I
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