CO885-(18-19) — Page 679

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

6

C.O.885

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT IU

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

6

12 June 1909.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir E. BLAKE..

think as a matter of fact it is improbable that it will be so. At the present moment we have three or four fourth-class clerks at the top who are very pro- mising. I may say as 忽 matter of fact that quite recently, within the last year or so, six or eight of our young fellows have been selected by the Colonial Office to go to the Colonies, and that is a great compliment to us. These men get an excellent business training with us, and they have gone out to Uganda, East Africa and Nigeria.

84. As-In sub-Treasury appointments and such appointments, mainly financial appointments, and they are all doing well, I am glad to say. We encourage it.

85. They are transferred into the Civil Service?- One of our youngsters is an assistant emigration agent at Calcutta.

86. (Sir Albert Spicer.) What percentage of your staff leaves you -A considerable number of our youngsters have left us lately, and that has been dono because we say to them: There is a far better opening for you abroad than we can give you in our office.' Promotion must be very slow and, therefore, we always encourage them to go, and I should always do so.

87. The Colonial Office really is looking to your office for recruits from time to time for positions abroad? Yes, it is.

88. And you do not object to that Not in the least. I think it is in the interest of our youngsters; they ought to go; they feel very grateful to us for putting their foot on the ladder, and I think it very desirable that we should do that.

89. How long has that been going on?-For the last three or four years, I should think.

90. It has been going on since you adopted these Civil Service methods with regard to your fourth class? It is not that. You must remember that there has been an enormous increase of places, East Africa, Uganda and Nigeria requiring to be staffed; they are new places and, therefore, they have wanted this kind of staff. Ceylon, the Straits, and other places have special services of their own and would resent any outsider being brought in; but these new places want them, and, therefore, the Secretary of State wanted this class of man, and was very glad indeed to take our men.

01. At any moment had you a superabundance, say, after the South African War was over?-Yes, that is a point I will tell you about. I said that at the end of 1900 I had practically to alter the organisation of the office, and at one time we had 14 supplementary clerks of the third class, that is to say, recruited very much under the old system, and I found that the tendency was for the office to get top-heavy and too expensive, and, therefore, I created this new class, and have since then been engaged in absorbing these sup- plementary men.

92. (('hairman.) As to the 65 clerks here, do they appear on this paper (handing a list to the Witness)?— No, this is the establishment; this is the authorised, establishment, and they do not appear upon that.

93. Here is the authorised establishment-all these clerks Yes; you must remember that the Secretary of State suddenly sends work to us. He sent the Transvaal work and the Orange River work to us; he did not ask whether we could do it or whether we had staff for it, but we had instantly to create a staff. The Audit Office has been worrying us, saying: "Why do you not get the Secretary of State's authority for these men?" and my answer has been: "It will be time for us to do that when we know that this work is to remain." Meantime they are merely

on our supplementary list

94. The 65 clerks are on the supplementary list? They are all on the supplementary list, and I shall, 48 soon as 1 can get the organisation into shape, say to the Secretary of State: "Now I ask you to approve of a new organisation for the office; we have worked it out."

95. Who are these 47 gentlemen in this paper (indi. eating)? They are the first, second and third classes.

96. They do not appear on this list of your organisa. tion ?—Yes, they appear; you will see the numbers.

97. They are the 8 heads of departments, 11 deputy heads of departments, 23 section heads and 4 redundant Yes.

·

98. That brings me to the question of whether all these people, right up to heads of departments, under your present scheme will work up from the 65 fourth- class clerks That will entirely depend upon whether they are fit for it. The minute I read to you dis tinctly lays down that these men will not rise out of that class unless they show exceptional merit.

99. What will be the method of selection when you select other than by promotion from below?—That probably will not arise in my time; I should say that the Crown Agents of the day will have to settle how they will select.

100. There must be vacancies in the 8 heads and 11 deputy heads--The way in which une always recruits the upper staff is by working downwards until you find a suitable man.

more

101. We have to inquire into the selection, and we desire to know how you would choose a man from below for one of the higher positions?-We have not had a case occurring recently. I am afraid I have not made myself quite clear, because originally there was no classification at all. The Secretary of State allowed us to spend so much on clerical staff, and my predecessors did not care for a classification, and used to say: "We want so many more clerks; will you authorise us to spend so much on clerical staff?" and the Secretary of State used to say. "Yes." The only control was that periodically we sent in a list of our staff; so that, for instance, if the Crown Agents, as they are always suspected of doing, had put down one of their nominees at an exces- sive salary, the Secretary of State could have said: "That is incnstrous; what is your reason?" We there fore sent in the list, Gradually I have been trying to evolve an organisation for the othice; I have organised it into classes, and we are gradually working this out -in fact, this Committee cuts right across what I have been doing,

102. It does not cut across it, it inquires into it.- It cuts across it before I have finished my work; I hoped to have finished it and then to have said: "I have carried through this re-organisation and now I can go." This Committee comes at a time when I have not completed it.

103. You tell us that the thing is in process of being done?—Yes.

104. I should say the Committee is inquiring at a most interesting time.-But it is very harassing to

me.

105. I am sure we shall make it as little harassing as possible. Still, we do not get at what is your proposal for the appointment of these deputy heads in the event of their not being available by promo- tion. Would you begin at the bottom or the "top?- Which shall I take?

106. We began at the bottom with the 65 clerks?— are called four redundant clerks of class III. The You will see at the present time we have got what reason for that is that we have organised the depart ments in this way; there is a head of a department and there is a deputy head, that is to say, wa endeavour to have an understudy for everybody. Then we have the section heads; those, so to speak, in military language are the non-commissioned officers, and the clerks of class IV. are the rank and file.

Under this new organisation we have four redundant clerks of the third class. Two of these men will not be fit for promotion. One of these men will get his promotion next September, when a member of our staff is going on pension. will leave us only one redundant clerk who will be absorbed, whenever a vacancy occurs. into the section heads. Then, when that is done, if a vacancy should occur in the section heads we should immedi- ately look through our list of clerks of the fourth class and say: "Is there any man in that class frt for promotion?" If the answer is in the affirmative -and I am glad to say it would be at the present time -he would go ap; if it were not we should undoubtedly recruit from the outside.

That

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE.

107. Now, how would you do that?That we have not contemplated at present.

100. It might happen any moment; when you get back to the office just now you might find that there had been a sad accident and one of the section heads had fallen permanently ill.-You see I have these redundant men' at prosent.

109. But you do anticipate a possibility of not being able to promote?-Undoubtedly.

are

180

110. How do you propose to select people such as section heads-That would entirely depend on the circumstances. Of course, our office is a very curious one, and you must remember when I say there are eight departments that these departments dissimilar in their work that they are almost separate vilices. The qualifications wanted in one depart- ment are not necessarily the qualifications necessary in the other; we might have to recruit from outside.

111. How would you recruit? What method would you adopt? Would you put an advertisement in the paper-No, we should generally be able to find them; ople constantly apply to us, and if they are desirable applicants we keep a list of them.

112. You have a list of candidates?—Yes, but for a long time past our answer has been that there is very httle hope for them and that it is no use.

113. (Mr. Harris.) I might take two cases in par- ticular which will assist the Committee. Two gentle- men have been recently transferred to my knowledge Into the Colonial service, one being Mr. Knollys, and the other Mr. Hely Hutchinson Graves. They were quite recently brought into the Crown Agents' lice. I think, and perhaps if you could tell 1 where they came froni and why they were s.lected, that would met the Chairman's point? Knollys was the son of the Governor of Trinidad. He exercised great pressure that we should give him a start with a view of getting him into the Colonial Service, and we did it, and he is quite a capable Governor of Trinidad youngster. His father was and died as Governor of Trinidad, and we practically started that youngster; he came to us at about 18 or 10 years of age.

114. (Chairman.) As an avenue to the Colonial Service 7-Hoping that he would get into the Colonial Service.

115. (Mr. Harris.) But there is no certainty?-No; it entirely reated with the Secretary of State.

116. In fact, I think you have had one or two other similar cases who rather came with the same hope of being taken, have you not?Yes, sometimes that has bren so.

Graves was the son of a man who lost his life in the Colonial Service, and great pressure was brought to hear upon us by the Colonial Office to take him on our staff.

117. (Chairman.) Then the Colonial Office recom- mend you to appoint people ?They have constantly done so.

118. There should be no difficulty in finding people when a vacancy unexpectedly arises, because the Colonial Office have always people they are urging you to take into your service-That is so.

119. (Sir Albert Spicer.) How much new blood have you taken in, say, during the period you have had this reorganisation scheme going on?-Certainly 60 of the fourth class.

120. I do not mean that class, but anything above that class: have you taken in any from outside?—No, we have not required to do so.

121. (Chairman.) Vacancies have not arisen ?—We have had suitable men in the office for promotion. You must always bear this in mind, that ours is not a Government office; pardon me for saying so.

122. It is not a Government office and it is not a private office --No. The thing is this: that we are dependent upon our efficiency. As I said to Lord Crowe (I forget whether I said the same to you, sir), wan attacked by everybody, and if we were not effi- cient we should go to the ground directly. We are effi- cient, and we are kept up to the mark because every- lly is trying to get his knife into us, and the Crown Agents would be mad if they did not try to make

[12 June 1908.

7

their staff ellicient. The more efficient their staff is the less trouble the Crown Agents have with their work. It is to our interest that the office should be efficient, and it is a thing I am perpetually saying to the members of the staff: "The first consideration is the ethriency of the oflice; your own personai in- terests must come second."

123. When the Colonial Office brings strong pressure on you to appoint particular people, you do it if you can-If we can; they go in at the bottom, and if they did not prove suitable we should try to get rid of

124. Sometimes they go in half-way up, do they not ?-No.

them.

125. Always at the bottom?—They go in at the bottom now. The third class used to be the bottom, but the fourth class has been introduced recently. It is purely supplementary, and it is not on the stab- lishment. If at the present time anyone asked me to take in a man, I would say, "Very well, he may come in if he likes, but he must come in at the bottom, and if he shows himself desirable I shall give hini larger increments, and push him ahead as fast as I

can.

126. (Sir Albert Spicer.) You mentioned just now, in connection with the fourth class, that a good many

were board school boys. How many would be what I should call secondary school boys-I cannot tell that.

127. Are the greater part of them from that class? -The greater part of them are from the board school or the second grade schools.

128. Where would your third class have come from originally Very much the same class. In the past we have had a considerable number of soldier clerka. The first Crown Agent was Sir Penrose Julyan, who was a commissariat man, and he brought in a con- siderable number of Army clerks, some of whom proved excellent, and some of them proved very second-rate. We have subsequently brought in move Army clerks; some of them have done very well, but the great objec tion to them is that, first of all, they join rather fate in life, and, secondly, they have very strict limita- tions, as a rule. If you try to put a man of that class to rather higher work than he is capable of doing, he goes all to pieces.

129. Then as to your second class, what education would they have had?—They are the better men from the third class; we have recruited the third class in the past chiefly by these soldier clerks and public school boys, and the men who have got to the heads of departments are practically the public school boys. 130, (('hairman.) If we were now to walk into your office, amongst these 65 junior clerks, whom we should find doing the same work, there would be the public school boy or the son of a governor, the soldier or the Leard school boy?—Yes.

131. In fact, it is completely democratic for a start? -Perfectly democratic; and in the future, if the board school boy were the better man than the public school boy or the university man, he would be his master.

132. (Sir Albert Spicer.) Do you have any opening in your scheme for the public school boy? Must he come into your class IV-At present he must come into class IV.. but it is quite possible that, in the future, we may say, "Those boys are not good enough,

," and then we may have to introduce some public school boys,

133, (('hairman.) You do not know yet how this will work -No; at present the reorganisation has been been with a view to rather cutting down the top of the office and increasing the rank and file. I thought these boys could do the work that men had been doing, and they are doing it excellently,

134, (Mr. Gibson.) Does not that policy tend

in to prevent your getting good men

at the bottom-public school boys, I mean!-You do not realise the enormous amount of detail work there is in our office; it is perfectly awful the amount of detail work. If you will turn to one of the most typical de partments the checking and shipping department— and look at the organisation of that, the routine work in that department is perfectly awful. It is practically two branches-checking the invoices and advising the

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

IRF REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

1

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

1 2 3 41_5]

6||