CO885-(18-19) — Page 677

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

PILE C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

2

12 June 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir E. BLAKE.

to the Colonial Office an organisation which is able to cope with business questions which the Colonial Office is not organised to deal with, and it enables the Secretary of State to delegate to the Crown Agents the responsibility of dealing with such ques. tions, while at the same time leaving to himself the right of passing judgment upon their actions in case they are challenged. If the Secretary of State found by experience that he had frequently to express disapproval or even disagreement with our actions,

I could understand his being in doubt as to whether the Crown Agency was a success. The archives of the Colonial Office prove, however, that it is of extremely rare occurrence for the Secretary of State to disagree with the manner in which we have con- ducted the business entrusted to us, and such being the case we may fairly claim the confidence and support of the Secretary of State when we are attacked. I submit that the proper answer to the present question, and to all questions of a similar nature respecting this office, is to the following effect :-

**(1) That the Crown Agency is a business6 organisation established in the interest of the Crown Colonies, and to it is entrusted the con- duct of all such business matters as cannot be conveniently dealt with by the Colonial Office.

(2) That the Crown Agents themselves are appointed by the Secretary of State, but that the organisation of their office and the appoint- ment of their staff is left to the Crown Agents to deal with on their own responsibility, and that the essential feature in the Agency is the wide discretion which is necessarily imposed in the Crown Agents, subject to their being under the obligation to justify their actions to the Secretary of State if they are challenged.

(3) That the system of business adopted in the case of the Crown Agenry has proved in practice to be a very great success, and that although frequently challenged. successive Secretaries of State have always arrived at the conclusion that the system should be main- tained.

*(1) That Lord Elgin's experience agrees with that of his predecessors, and that he, like his predecessors, must decline to accede to any committee of enquiry into the office until a primâ facie case for such inquiry has been made out.

"(5) That no such case has, in his opinion, been made out, but that he, like his predeces- sors, will always be willing to receive and in- vestigate any specific cases of mismanagement of their business which may be alleged against the Crown Agents.

"I feel confident that if this view is maintained a complete and satisfactory answer would be given to any specific allegation which might be made. Some person or persons who have a personal griev ance against the Crown Agents are almost always at the bottom of agitations against us."

Sir Francis Hopwood answered that the next day by simply saying:

The Secretary of State has carefully considered what answer should be returned to Mr. Claude Hay's question in the House of Commons, asking for the appointment of an independent committee to inquire into the constitution, administration, &c., of the Crown Agents. The question was originally put down for the 6th, but has been postponed. Lord Elgin does not feel that he can resist the de- mand for an inquiry with a strictly limited scope, and has accordingly approved of the answer, a copy of which I enclose."

[Enclosure.]

The Senior Crown Agent for the Colonies receives £2,500 a year. As I explained to the Hon. Member on Tuesday last, the Crown Agents are not Civil servants, and the true position is to compare their salaries with those given to officials of great commercial and financial institutions.

"The Secretary of State associates himself with the views expressed by his predecessors upon the

work and administration of the Crown Agents Office as an organisation distinct from the Colonial Office: but he will be glad to consider the desira- bility of appointing a small Inter-departmental Committee to report upon the best method of select- ing the clerical and technical staff for the Crown Agents Office, and particularly to consider the con- ditions of tenure, the scale of payment of salaries and pensions, and how far the arrangements in that office are in accord or can be brought into harmony with the principles governing the Čivil Service,”

That is our position, and I should like you to know as a matter of fact that the way in which the office. does its business has been inquired into a considerable number of times. I have personal knowledge that there was a Local Committee of Inquiry into the Stores Department in Ceylon in 1878. There allegations were made against the Crown Agents. The result was an absolute collapse, and the Secretary of State passed a very severe condemnation on the Government of Ceylon for not having defended the Crown Agents, although they possessed all the information. There was a simi- lar committee in Hong Kong in 1902, and then Mr. Chamberlain in 1901 actually sent a circular to the Colonies inviting them to make complaints against us. Those complaints are in this print which you have no doubt seen, and there is Mr. Chamberlain's summing. up and Mr. Lyttelton's despatch which was published. The result, as you are aware, if you have read the papers, is that it was said that the work of the Crown Agenta was well done, and that there was practically nothing requiring alteration. Then when the Riots Commission of Inquiry went to Trinidad in 1902 or 1903, the Crown Agents were again attacked vehe. mently, and the people who made the charges were cross-examined, with the result that they said they had no evidence; they simply said there was an impression that the Crown Agents were corrupt and everything of that kind, but it all collapsed absolutely. I should therefore like you to understand that we have been subjected to the most severe ordeal. Personally, I consider that it is a most cruel thing that since I took charge of the office in 1900 no less than Mr. Chamberlain's Inquiry and this present Inquiry should be put upon us.

5. We are all liable to be attacked.-But we expect the Secretary of State to defend us in Parliament. He is in the best position, because he knows whether our work is well done or not. Of course you are new to the work, and it is a thing I feel that on this Commit- tee we ought to have bad one of the Assistant Under- Secretaries, either Sir Charles Lucas or Mr. Antrobus, who know our work,

6. I think, if I may interrupt you, please, the ques- tion firstly as to whether there should be a Committee, and secondly as to whether the Committee is well or ill- constituted need not be discussed; that is completely settled, and there is no further question about that. Here we are; but we shall be most grateful for all the information you can give us. I hope you will dismiss from your mind that this Committee starts with any prejudice at all. It is only usual, and in accordance with universal custom, when any public department is tee appointed to inquire with regard to it.-May I subjected to criticism that there should be a Commit-

correct you, Bir? We are not a public department.

7. That is what we are going to inquire into how far you ought to be a public department ?—Yes,

8. And I hope you will dismiss from your mind any idea that you are here placed in any unfair or difficult position; the Committee is appointed by the Secretary of State in accordance with precedents, and it is our duty to find out what we can. We feel confident that you will give us all the information you can.-It seems to us that if we are put on our trial we ought to know if there is any evidence against us.

9. You shall know all about it; for the present you are the first witness, and you can tell us how things do exist, and if, in your judgment, any changes are desirable. That is the organisation of the office (handing in a typed_list.) *

10. That is as it standa at present?--That is so

• See Appendix 1.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE

11. I think it will be convenient that I should read out to the Committee very briefly what they are, and then I will ask you to give us your opinion on the specific points raised in the Terms of Reference. I presume you have copies of this list -Yes.

12. The organisation at present is three Crown Agents, that is yourself, Major Cameron, and Mr. Mercer?-Yes.

13. Cine secretary, 8 heads of department, 11 de- puty heads of department, 23 section heads, 4 redun- lant, 65 clerks, copyists, 20 lady clerks. 1 lady telephone operator, 1 inspector of clothing, 3 women examiners in the stamp department, 1 office keeper, and 7 messengers and porters, total 200, and 27 outside engineering inspectors?-Those are in our en gineering inspection department; we have a good many other engineering inspectors.

14. I think each member of the Committee would like to have a copy of this list. Then there is a detailed description of each branch; for instance, in the General Stores Department there is 1 head of the department, 1 deputy head of the department, 4 sec- tion heads, 7 clerks, 5 copyists, and so on.

15. (Sir Halph Moor.) I think you mentioned that part of the inspection staff is not included there?-- Part of the inspection staff is included, but the out- side inspectors are not included. We have a certain nucleus of permanent people who are considered on the staff, but the outside inspectors are liable to be discharged at any moment.

16. (Chairman.) Perhaps you could tell us, taking the terms of reference as they come, the best method of selecting the clerical and technical staff; in your view. I think, the present method is the best method? -nquestionably so.

17 Will you tell us what that method is ---When we require members to increase our staff we recruit them in whatever way may seem best to us at the moment, having regard to the particular duties which have to be fulfilled, but perhaps I might say a few an idea of words before I continue to give you

When I the extraordinary growth of the office. entered the office, in January, 1881, there was a staff of 33; including Crown Agents and messengers, it would be under 40. That was in 1881. When I took over the command of the office from Sir Montagu Ommaney in June, 1900, our staff consisted of 68, probably with messengers, it might be about 75. Now, arcording to the list I have handed in to you, it is about 200. The office, of course, has had a great many ups and downs. When I originally joined the office we were agents for the Cape, Natal, Western Australia, and Tasmania. All of those have received responsible government since, and when they went, after a time, they appointed agents of their own. I may say, as a matter of fact, that they were all extremely reluctant to leave us, and they had to be Compelled to leave us.

18. I suppose the Cape was self-governing at the time you represented them?—No, it had a Representa- tive Chamber, but it had a sort of Crown Colony Government; it was one of the hybrid constitutions.

19. About what date do you speak of 7-Something like 1884. Our work fluctuated very much, but when Mr. Chamberlain came into office, and instituted his policy of developing the Crown Colonies, our work began to grow; and then in consequence of the war in South Africa the work of the Transvaal and Orange River was suddenly thrown upon us. As a consequence we had an enormous access of work suddenly thrown upon us, and I very soon found (this was in 1900) that our organisation was not equal to the strain which was being put upon it. and from that moment set myself to me. organise the office, and I am very glad to say that 1 have practically carried it through, not entirely, but almost. In the end of 1900 I came to the con- clusion that it did not do to add haphazard to our staff as we had been doing in the past, that is to say, just when we wanted a clerk adding one, but that we must have a class corresponding to the lower division of the Civil Bervice, and we established this class from the beginning of 1901. Perhaps I had better read the Minute to you.

a 21

20. Yos.-

[12 June 100S.

B

"Supplementary Clerks.-A class of supplementary or fourth-class clerks is created from the 1st January, 1901. The class will correspond generally with the second division of the Civil Service, and in making appointments to the class, preference will be given to boy copyists who have been em- ployed in the office and who have qualified them- selves for the Second Division of the Civil Service by passing the necessary examination. The comment. ing salary of the class will, in the case of those who have passed the Second Division examination, be not less than £70 a year, and the annual increments will, subject to good behaviour, be not less favour- able than those obtainable in the Second Division. The salaries of clerks appointed to the class, who have not passed the Second Division examination, will be fixed on each occasion as the merits of the Clerks in the supplementary case may require. class will be eligible for promotion to the higher classes of the office establishment, and when so promoted will go into the higher class at a not less salary than they may at the time be receiving. Promotion to the higher classes will, however, depend solely on ability and merit, and it must be distinctly understood that those not showing such ability and merit must not expect to rise to a salary exceeding £250 a year. The annual holiday in the case of the supplementary class will be three weeks, and the hours of attendance will be those of the other classes of the office. Members of the supple- mentary class will, subject to good behaviour, be eligible for pension like all other members of the staff on altimate retirement."*

we

So that from that time we have practically been recruiting the office almost exclusively in that way, I said, now have, B5 with the result that 65 of these clerks, and it is an increasing class, be- cause as our members under the old organisation go off we generally replace them by those lower division clerks. As a matter of fact, under this new system, although our office has increased enormously in numbers, in expense it has increased very little because we have organised the office on a better basis, having fewer members at the top and a very large army of subordinates.

21. Are these the 65 clerks in class IV. 7-Yes.

22. They are selected, we understand now, from those who have passed an examination?-Not neces sarily we get from the Civil Service a class of what they call boy clerks, or boy copyists, or something of that kind, and when we want them we notify the Civil Service Commissioners, and they send us these boys. Some of these boys have proved extremely good clerks, and if the head of a department says: "This boy is an excellent clerk" and that he would be very sorry to lose him, we put him on the staff as a clerk.

23. So that in some cases they pass no examination at all?-In some cases they pass no examination at all, but the greater test is that they have proved them. selves by ability. I have a most amusing instance I will give you. When first the new system was introduced we had a boy who was employed in our pattern rooms. When his time came (the Civil Service Commissioners discharge these boys when they reach the age of 20, I think), it was reported that this boy could not pass the examination and would not go up for it. We gave him notice to go, and then, of course, for humanity's sake we said: We will keep you while you are looking out for other etaployment." We kept him hanging on and at last the head of the department said that he was such an excellent clerk, he would be extremely sorry to lose him, so that this boy, who would have been sent under any rigid rule, has remained with us away

imply because he proved himself such an excellent clerk. May I interpolate here that I think you ought to understand that in our office there is a most enor mous amount of routine work; the amount of routine work is perfectly gigantic, and any boy who is intelli- gent and who is fairly quick at figures, is really the best

*The Minute concluded :-

and the Crown Agents will hope eventually to be able to inclu le them in the Office Insurance System, under which on the marriage of a turmber the Office contributes à large proportion of the premiom on a Polier of fixed amount, which is settled on the wife and family of the member.

Intid. E. B. 22rul Deormber, 1900."

A 2