PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
TC.O. 882
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE | COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
To
29 July 1909
MALITIES ROYAL COMMISSION, 1909
The Right Rev F A GREGORY, P.D
14.350 You do not think that the country com
They could not be relied upon ?— 100ttern coull do it
1 not think so
14,351 Do you think that every class would try to I have heard so tavor its own people. theu - You uch from people who were here at the time of the way in which that loan was distributed in 1892, that I
It is
u really profoundly suspicious of any funds being put in the hands of local committees in Mauritius. very sad to say it, and I am very sorry, but I think it
14,352 Of course, it would be necessary on a local Committee of that kind to get people who represent all
L? -You, I quite nuderstand that
11.353 Mr Wolcock. That should supply me oficient check or counter-check, do not you think ?— Possibly
14,354. (Chairman) Unless it ended simply in the Committee quarrelling and they would not relieve any. ty-In some districts of the island you would have
mixture such as you propose.
14,355 Could not you always find representatives of the Hindoos, the Mahommedans, the Créoles and the Roman Catholics and the Protestants; could not you always get them-Not in every district of the land, in some districts you would be limited to low Créoles and Indians Take Flavy for instance.
14,356 (Mr Woodcork) Is there no minister of religion at all at Flacq?-I do not know where the nearest Roman Catholic church is, but we have nothing
lown there
14.357 (Secretary You have an Assistant Minister down there?-At Flacq?
I was think.
11.358. Yes In the Flacy district. ing of a place called Brisée Verdière.
14.359 Me Woodcock The Rev John Ernest is there-He lives at Terre Rouge and he goes there As to spread as far as possible, but he does not live thep
11,360. But still, he is the kind of man who could serve on a committee of that kind ?-Certainly, in his politen You would group different provinces. Is that The idea
14,381 One cannot go into two minute detail!— No. I wanted to know whether your divisions would be large oner or small ones
14362 Assuming a large division —If you assume the Provinces of the island---
14,963 (Chairman) Yes, I mean the eight districts in the island think you could find your committee as you propone, I was thinking more of smaller districts.
11,384 No. They would do that I mean the district Committee could organise any other machinery that they thought was necessary ?—I did not follow what you Maid
If you simply mean these large districts. I I am willing to withdraw what I said thank you could alout that.
14,365 Do you think that would be a better arrange ment than the present one, which leaves it all in the hands of one ban?-It is very hard to say, but I should think, yes.
14.366. (Mr Woodcock.) ls it that you have not been able to give the thing your attention; you have not. as a fact, given it any particular attention ?--I have not thought of the point you are putting; in fact I have not discussed it at all before
14,367. It is not that you feel inclined, off-hand, to way that it would not work ?—No, I will not go so far as that, because I think that the present system is bad. 14,388. (Chairman.) You think that the present system is bad, and you also, I gather from you, distrust all Mauritius Boards -I am afraid I mistrust them very much indeed.
14,369. Because you think they are partial, or is it because you think they are lazy and do not take any ut-rest-1 think they are certainly partial, and even fraudulent.
14,370. Not that they are lazy, but rather that they would want to interfere too much?-Yes, they want to get something for themselves.
14,371. Or for their friends. I suppose !-Yes, or for their friends; that in partial-quite so.
[Continued
14.372 Have you been brought into contact with instances of that kind? I have heard a great deal about it
14,373. That partiality - From my profession I bave never had to actually dole out money or to share it, or to be on a committee for the purpose, but I have heard about it from people, if that is any use to you
14.374. No. 1 am afraid that is not sufficient. I thought possibly that you might often have been brought into contact with the views of other people in a business way when you were sitting on committees ? -I am not on any committees.
14.375 You have never had to do with any charitable organisation or anything of that kind with the people We had a fund called the Mallack Fund, which was left by charitable people, but that was entirely at my own disposal.
14.376. Then might ask you on what it is that you found your opinion of the people here. that they are not to be trusted to dispose of the money properly? - not think one can get away from the fact. that when one hears a great many things from people it must be true; I cannot
14,377 (Sir Edward O'Malley.) That it is notorious -Quite. Do not you think that is sufficient nean. could you live in a place and be subject to its atmo- sphere. and constantly, not once now and again, but to be constantly told of things that have been done by people who you would imagine to be quite above suspicion.
14,378. It would depend where it came from. whether from all classes of the community, or only from particular section-I mix up with people pretty well-all different kinda of people-English planters. English traders, and so on.
14,379. I am afraid there is a strong class feeling in Mauritius-You mean English and French?
14.380. Yes, there is rather that, and there is also
a strong feeling between the Créole and the Indian?— There is a very strong Créole and Indian feeling.
14,31. You see there, at once, you have pot four classes, and so it is difficult to take a statement of any one of them about the other?-The clasa feeling is very sad. but it exista very strongly.
14.382. (Mr Woodcock.) But still you must be able to judge of the reliability of the people from whom you have heard these things, and you have formed an impression of that sort, be it right or wrong?—I have. very distinctly, indeed.
14.383. (Chairman.) But still, at the same time. you cannot say that you yourself have met it --No, I cannot. To give one instance of my authority, an I say, not my own experience, just before I left England. Mr. McGregor, who was the Auditor General before Mr. Grannum, stayed a night with me. We talked for four or five hours in the evening over the state of Mauritius, and he gave it as his deliberate opinion. that he had never been in a place where there was so much corruption as here. Now the Auditor General. I suppose, knows more of that sort of thing than anyone else in a Colony, because his business bringa him in connection with all sorts of people, and when a man of probity and so on tells you that, it must make It is you form your opinion. Do not you think so?
Do very hard to feel that he is absolutely mistaken. not you think I am justified in saying so
14,384. That is the statement of one person. 1 have had an opportunity of seeing Mr. McGregor in England. The impression he left on my mind was that the Créoles were very lazy and not reliable?-I am quoting his own words,
14,385. Not more than that.
Was there any point
on which you would have liked to give us the value of your experience P-I had a letter from Archdeacen Buswell, one of our clergy here, about the waifs and strays, the boys. Might I read you a few sentences
of it!
14.386. Certainly - The question "that is to ay the question of the Reformatory-" came before the Primary Committes of Education about two year "ago" of which, by the way, he is a member- "Mr. De Boucherville and others spoke of the Reform. I asked them atory as a nursery for criminals.
29 July 1909]
-
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
The Right Rev F A. GREGORY, D D.
whether they had ever visited the institution. They confessed they had not. I told them that under the present arrangement the lads were well looked after. The papers write against it without knowing anything about it. A gentleman expressed himself, I believe, strongly against the institution some years ago, but that was when it was under the charge of an unsatis- The Commissioners factory and incompetent man. expressed their surprise that no effort was made to provide for the lads after leaving the Reformatory. Occasionally Mr. Trotter has sent hopeful cases to Plaisance, but only very occasionally. I think none have been sent for some time past. It would be better to send the waife and strays to Plaisance at Government expense, and to reserve the Reformatory for the criminal lads." I thought possibly that might be of use.
14,387. That is very interesting, but that appears to me to be an instance of the very thing that we were speaking of just now. Here is someone who apparently knows well about the Refurmatory, and he says that all the information that has hitherto been given to us is wrong, because it is given by people who do not know anything about it -This gentleman, of whom I am speaking to you, has been in the island some 40 years. and I think he knows perhaps almost as well as any- body about it.
14,388. But it certainly is the fact that every witness who has said "reformatory" to ne, has said that the reformatory is a bad place, so bad that it was unsuitable -I know it was said it was very bad some years ago, but the present man-I think it in Mr. Kennedy-is competent and careful,
14,389. (Mr. Woodcock.) I think that on one or two occasione I have expressed my view rather strongly that I was surprised to find that the Church establishments in this island had not done what might have been expected of them in the matter of the prisons and the reformatory. Now perhape, following up that letter which you have read to us, you may tell us, do you know of any organised Church work which is done in the prisons, or in the matter of looking after the prisoners when they come out, in the way of prisoners aid work, or in the reformatory, with a view of saving the youths and putting them on their legs again to earn an honest living after they come out ?-We should be interested if you could tell us what we could do. First of all we have chaplains who go to the prisons and to the reformatory-Indian chaplains, because most of the prisoners are Indians, and they do what they can to teach them there. They give them reli- gious instruction, and have a short service, and that sort of thing; but after they come out, I cannot tell you anything.
14,390. You agree with me, that that of course may be purely formal work; in the hands of men of extraordinary character a work of that kind may be very valuable, but it may be purely formal?-Quite so; it is like the work which the Church Army does at
home.
14,301. It is very difficult to know whether the work will be of value or not. Do you know of no society or association which systematically looks after these prisoner and these reformatory lads when they come out of those places P-Absolutely none.
14,392 (Chairman.) But apparently one atatement that has been made to us is true, and that is that criminal boys and non-criminal boys are all mixed up together in the reformatory ?—Yes, I think they are.
14,393. (Mr. Woodcock.) Would you be prepared, so far as you can say, without in any sense pledging your self, to take part with the Roman Catholic Bishop in the island for looking after the reformatory --I would, because I think I have got the machinery ready at hand at the Boys' Orphanage—to take waifs and strays, you mean, who are not criminals.
14,394. No, I rather thought of the criminal boys. You see in some colonies arrangements have been made, I think I am right in saying, with the Church to take over and manage the reformatory P--Yes.
14,893. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) I think the arrange- ments that are made are for having schools-what we
[Continued
77
call in England industrial schools-not a reformatory where criminal children are sent to be reformed-but to have an industrial school for children, where they are sent, rather than a reformatory ?. Those are the boys I mean, waifs and strays, who are not yet er minale.
14,396. (Mr. Woodcock.) Do you thin
ou could deal with that class!-Yes, I think I could deal with that class.
- 14.397. To pass from that class now, I want to go to the criminal class. Do you feel that you could work in conjunction with the Roman Catholic communion in any way to deal with the criminal class? It might be possible, for example, to hand over the whole of the criminal class in the reformatory and say, "Now will you undertake this P " Would you be prepared to work in conjunction with the Roman Catholic communion if they were prepared to work in conjunction with you P -Might I think about that?
14,398. I am only asking you whether you think it is at all possible?—I should certainly wish to do so, of
course.
14,399. A scheme was brought forward so we were told by one of the witnesses-was promulgated in this island, but had not been taken up.
14,400. (Chairman.) I wonder very much indeed whether there has not been some mistake, because at the time that that suggestion was made, and Ceylon was quoted, I wondered how, in putting a criminal reformatory, a real reformatory, in the hands of any religions body, they were going to provide for the mafe custody of the boys, because it is rather unreasonable to suppose that their actual safety would be entrusted to them, and a real reformatory, of course, is a prison for young criminals -Criminals would be very hard for the churches to deal with.
14.401. I am rather inclined to think that the gentleman who spoke of them meant something different, but you have spoken of the waifs and strays who are at present, mixed up with these criminal boys, and ought not to be there at all ?--I think it would be very hard to take criminals out of the hands of the State.
(Sir Edward O'Malley.) We had a system in Hong Kong.
There the Roman Catholic Bishop and his clergy did take in hand, and received from Government a grant for their keep and so on, boys who were suitable for Industrial Schools and that kind of thing, but then I think Mr. Sauzier, who was talking about it, did not distinguish between the two classes of boys.
(Chairman.) I think there must be some mistake, because that point occurred to me when he maid it. It seemed to be all so laid down and he was so confident about it, but it occurred to me at once, How are these people going to provide for their safety, because that cannot, I think, be left to the Church.
(Mr. Woodcock.) I see no insuperable difficulty myself.
(Chairman.) The Government would still, I think, have to be the jailor, but I can quite understand that they might undertake the rest of the work, but they would not undertake a divided authority like that, I should think. I do not see how you can hand over to anybody at all boys who are undergoing a sentence of a court; how can you?
(Mr. Woodoock.) I am not prepared, for the moment. to deal with it fully, but at present we are drawing the distinction between waifs and strays and criminals.
(Witness.) I am quite prepared to way, with regard to waifs and strays, we would do what we could for them do something for them, is better.
14,402. With regard to the income of the Church here, you were telling us that there was a grant of about 801. a year.
From what source was that P-No, I said it was raised by the Mauritius Diocesan Society in the inland itself.
14,403. Of course you mise a certain sum in the course of the year from collections in church ?—Yes.
14,404. Can you give us any idea of the amount raised. in round figures From the whole of the churches P
14,406. Yes I should think you might put down at 8001. a year.
14,406. Not more --I do not think so.