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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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29 July 1900

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1900

The Right Rev F A GREGORY, D.D

(18.)

The Hight Reverend FRANCIS Ambrose Gregory, D D. 14.283 (Chiarman) How long have you been her? Actually in the Island 34 years, it is 4 years since I ame- November 1904

14.284. We wanted to ask you questions particularly with reference to the contribution to the Church. It I think that Potues to Rs 34.576, I think!- Yes figure is perfectly currect

14,285 It seems to be divided into a considerable Mum for the maintenance of fixed establishments and small sum on ministers not catechists, not on the establishment, and something, very little indeed, for other charges? - Yes

rather what 14,286 We wanted to ask you difference it would make instead of the Government treating the clergy of the English Church as though they were Government servants with pension rights Atul leave rights and so forth. if, we will say, the quivalent of this sum were paid every year, and were disposed of by the Church for the same purposes as now, but without the members of the clergy being treated in that way, the Government having no further concern with their pension and so on?—I should think it would be for our advantage

14.287 Why do you think that -Of course the connection of Church and State is not ideal, is it? and, theoretically, I very much prefer the separation of the

twi

Practically in Mauritius, I am sorry to say, we should find it exceedingly hard to exist if the State said, We cannot afford to maintain any establishment of this sort any longer. I think that is my opinion of it. Of course the only point really from a financial point of view where it would injure us would be the absence of pensions.

14.288 Quite. You do not think that that would I do make any very serious difference? No, I do not. not think the clergymeu come here for the sake of pensions, at least, that is my opinion certainly, I mean I should be very sorry to think that they did.

14,289 To whom do the churches belong?-To the Ferlesiastical Commissioners, the Church Commis. We have a board constituted sioners, we call them.

by Ordinance, of which the Bishop is chairman, und five other gentlemen, one a clergyman and four laymen. who hold the Church property that there is in the Island trustees for the Church

14.290. When you want to do any building, who pays for it --We have to raise it ourselves.

14.291 Then as far as that is concerned it would make no difference to you?—It would make no differ ence at all; allutely none.

14.292. If the clergyman has to be brought out from England, who pays his passage-The first time Government, ever afterwards he pays it himself.

14.291. That you see, of course, would cease ?—Yes. that would cense.

14,294. I suppose that as regards that, for instance. the 8.P.G. or somebody in England would give asaint- aneo ?--I think a man might pay it himself. That seems to me such a small matter that really we could manage tlust ourselves quite well, but I should say some Church Society in England might help if it was a special

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14,295 Do the congregations here contribute at -To the clergy !

14.20 Yes No

14,297. To the church expenses ?—Yes. 14.298. By an offertory --Yes. by an offertory every Sunday

14.2990. They do not make any subscriptions ?---We have what we call the Mauritius Diocesan Church Fund, for which we collect once a year, and it averages about Ho, not a very formidable sum, and that we use for nking small grants-in-aid of buildings or different church purposes of that sort.

14,300. Where do your clergy live; in what sort of houses -In bungalows.

¡Continued

Bishop of Mauritius, called in and examined in private

I

14,301. Do they rent them ?-The bishop's house belongs to the See, and there are two parsonages which belong to the Church. The other houses are rented. think I ought to correct a little what I say, because 1 know in one case, and in only one, the congregation does make an allowance to the clergyman for his house rent. 1 forgot that for the moment; it is only in one case that I know of.

14.302. How many members of the Church have you here? We reckon, not counting soldiers. I think about 5,000 or 6,000.

14,303. What is the majority of those, are they Créoles? I am only counting Christians.

14.304. Yes P-I mean I do not count others at all Did you say Christians ?

14,305. No, I Bay Créoles and everything? 1 beg your pardon. First of all there is the English com- munity, which is small; then there are a certain number of French, a very fair number of French-I suppose they are descendants of the old Huguenots-and then there Are Indians. Those three constitute the Christians.

14,306. You have not got many Créoles, then? - By "Créoles" you mean Mauritians?

14.307. Yes P-I should think 1,200 perhaps. I cannot separate the three classes entirely in figures.

14.308. But practically their voluntary gifts to the Church are not considerable ?—They are very small.

14,309. It would not be any hardship, for instance, if they had to pay for the passage out of a clergyman? -It would not be much hardship, but they would not do it.

14,310. They would not do it P-No, I know they would not do it. It is no good disguising the fact from oneself, they would not.

14,311. Why is that? Is it the atmosphere of the place - Yes, it is the atmosphere of the place.

14,31. That everything is done for them? - Yes. everything is done for them, and it has been so for u long time. I do the best with my people, but with very little succeSR.

14,312. I suppose a good many of the white part of your church people are Government officers?-All the English, yes, distinctly, and of course there are always the soldiers, in some churches they form quite an important element of the congregation, the officers and the soldiers.

14,314. Have you got any charitable institutions attached to the church P-We have two orphanages : one at Rose Belle for girls and one at a place called Plaisance, near Rose Hill, for boys. We have rather over 50 in each of them; they are quite for the poor. They are orphanages in the literal sense of the word. and we have no well-to-do children among them..

14,315. How are they supported P-Voluntarily. 14,316. By the members P-Partly from home; partly in the Island.

14,317. What is the management -The manage- ment is an English lady.

14,318. With a committee ?-Now, with the Bishop. They were connected with the C.M.S., but the C.M.S has retired from the Island from the let July this year. and have handed over their work to me, and are no longer responsible for anything except for giving us a certain amount of money, 700% a year for five years; half of that for five years more, and then stop.

14,319. That in a new decision, is it -It was taken about a year and a half ago before I went home, two years ago perhaps. Their funds have been rather in low water and they were obliged to retrench, so they cut off three or four places, I do not know quite which Perwin for one, I believe, and they cut off Mauritius in the way I told you.

20.

14,320. Have you got any schools ?—Yan, we have We have 18 schools and two schools attached to

Our educational system coats the orphanages. about 9001. a year. I expected the question to be unked

ULA

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

The Right Rev. F A. GREGORY, D.D.

29 July 1909.]

rather this morning and I looked up some figures with regard to it.

14,321 Where are your 18 schools? Are they in the districts?—Yes, they are in the districts; we have one in Port Louis.

11,322. What teachers have you -Native teachers. 14,323. All Native ?-By “Native" meaning Créole and Indian.

14.324. They are all primary schools -No, one is what is called a Training College, where I have a few men training with an English clergyman as warden at It is only for the Rose Hill. but it is quite small.

I have five men there, as a matter needs of the diocese.

of fact. Of course that is an expensive luxury rather. 14.325 They are practically training for the Church Quite so, to supply our own people; some Indians, some Mauritians two Mauritians and three Indians

14,326. But the other schools are all open to the public -Oh, yes, entirely.

14.327. They are not purely for children with Church of England parents -They are for all the poor

children.

14,328. Yes, but I mean, are their parents all English Church people ?—Oh, dear no, the children are

not

14,329. Anybody ?-Anybody; I should think cer- tainly nine-tenths are Hindoos and Mahommedane and

BOD

14,330. Are they denominational schoola P. They here. We follow are what they call" Aided Schools the Government programme, examination by Govern- ment, and with the right of giving religious instruction, and, of course, the children having the right of being withdrawn from it by their parents, but, as a matter of fact, I was told the other day, there is scarcely one that is ever withdrawn-hardly ever. I think there are 2,200 children altogether in these schools that I am talking of.

14.331. Two thousand two hundred in all the 18 schools, or in the 20 P-In the 19 schools, because one of the schools is absolutely not under Government in any way-the school at the girls' orphanage that

Is not helped by the Government at all.

14.332. How many of your schools are for girls!— Only one for girls alone; all the rest are mixed, except the boys' orphanage, which in, of course, entirely for boys.

14.333. Do you know anything about the Royal College here?—I have heard a good deal about it, of From the inside I know nothing, but from talking to people who do know, I have heard a great

COTITAS.

deal.

14,334. But you have not yourself any knowledge with regard to it P-No, I never taught there at all.

14,335. You may have noticed that it has been anggested that the English scholarships, two of which are given away every year, might be thrown open to boys in any part of the Island. "Do you think that is a good thing or not P--No, I do not; it would ruin the Royal College. If you wish to keep up the Royal College, you must keep it up on the same basis as now. They have tried that at Seychelles, which is a parallel case. where they have what they call the Victoria School; they have bourses there, of course not nearly A valuable, and the Governor was talking to me about You know it the other day, and the Convent Schools. the pressure that can be put, and all the better class boys are taken from these better class schools and sent to the Brothers, consequently this Government school is languishing very much indeed. The same thing would happen here, I make no doubt about it.

14,336. I know an instance in Singapore. They have got a school there which corresponds to the Royal College here, only that it never had anything like the money spent on it. Instead of having, I think. about 12 English masters, it only had about one University man at its head, and all over the Colony there are numbers of Roman Catholic schools, and there is one other big Government school at Penang. Well, they all can compete for these two scholarships which are very nearly of the same value as are given here, and certainly the boys who won them sometimes

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[Continued

came from one place and sometimes from another, ut it never had the smallest effect on the school at Singapore -There was an effort--1 dare say you heard about it--a little time ago, to have boarding schools attached to the College, but that came to grief- I mean to establish the College more on what we understand by the Public School system at home, and they could not do it on the grounds that I have mentioned.

14,337. I should bave thought they would not be able to do that in Mauritius, because people would not pay for the board of their children; if it was given gratuitously, I should think it would be a great success? ---Given by the Government P

14,398. Yes. Have you got any view yourself as to the site of the school-whether it is in the proper place or not?-Put it in the cool, whatever you do. Port Louis is intolerable, of course, for about five months in the year. I do not say that Curepipe in absolutely necessary, but somewhere in the high ground is necessary. Port Louis is impossible.

14,339, I should think, more for the sake of the teachers than the boys, it is necessary to have it in a good climate-Yes, and for the boys, too.

14,340. Do you know of any other secondary educa. tion besides that which is given by the schools attached to the Royal College?--I do not know whether the Brothers have-I think they must have.

(Mr. Woodcock.) We are told there are quite a number of them.

(Chairman.) I think that must be a mistake.

14,341. (Mr. Woodcock.) We have some evidence before us that there are a number of them, and we have some evidence that there are none, and you, who should be in a position to know, do not seem to know ? --I have never had any knowledge of them at all, but my impression is that there is one that they opened the other day at Rose Hill; it is taught by Brothers. certainly.

14,342. (Chairman.) I think we were told there was one at Curepipe and one at Rose Hill --I think that must be correot. There is the one at Rose Hill,

14,343. Do you know anything about the adminis tration of the Poor Law here? You know there is a Poor Law authority?—I do.

14,344. And you know that it costs the Government a very large sum of money P-I know that.

14,345. You know about it. What is the view you hold I have had occasion to send people for help to Mr. Garrioch from time to time, and I have been to him two or three times to talk over the cases with him that have come to my notice, and he has always said that they were so frightfully over-burdened with the number of applicante that they had no money.

14,346. Do you think that the system on which it is worked is a good one -This out-door relief?

14,347. Yen?--I think it in the only one the Colony can afford. I mean we could not support anything corresponding to our workhouses, could we? such an enormous expense.

It is

14,348. It has been suggested to us that by far the majority of the people who are relieved, and, at any rate. ought to be relieved, are women who have got nobody to support them, many of them being either infirm or ald, or both, or else with very small children depending on them. Now, it has been suggested that what is wanted in to decentralise this poor law relief, and in every district to have a committee of local people who would be interested in doing that; to give to them a share of the funds, and to let them distribute it in their own district, accounting for it in just the same way that the Poor Law authority does; and they say, in that way, the Government would be relieved of a good deni of trouble and of some part of the establishment. which means the costs of distributing relief, and also that it would be much better and more fairly done, because the people who would be in these country districts would know the people who ought to be relieved better than a man with his staff living in Port Louis Perfectly.

14,349. Do you think there is anything in that?-- Not much, my reason being the character of the people.