CO882-(8-9) — Page 367

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :--

C.O. 882

6

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON] ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

2 July The

MARRONEOUS RVAL A

MMISSION, 1ore!

The Right Rer F AGREGORY, 11

11 PT May I take it that you have collections from for the litter for the poor? - Yen, we do, certainly. I min all the past have to is helped out of that

13 px Out of that 3000 A a matter of fact. ne hrips them far up out of ones own private

I than out of vollections

11409 You have pew rents. I leheve, in the island?

- Yes, we have a few in some place

14,410 Do you rase any appreciable revenue throughout the island from that source?

No. note at

all A sitting is half a rupee a mouth. Rs 6 a year. I have no doubt and you may almost call it negligible that in the places they raise a couple of hundred Pups. but it is so small that it is negligible

14.411. What would you put it at for the whole the island-The pew rents ?

14,412 Yes I should very much doubt if it is more than 20/ or 257

14.413. Have you any other grants from any other outside source, except that from the Church Missionary Society --Yes, the SPG

14.414 From them what do you get a year? -Their nominal graut in 1,000, but of that 150 is taken in England to pay some pensions and we have the balance, I think it is It is 99607 if you wish me to be exact.

O they take in England, and that is for the Indian work, of eutirge

14.415 (Chairman) How many churches have you ?— We have. I think. 21, but I should like to explain ther

Continued

We have services in five languages-English. French, Tamil, Telugu and Houdes that one church has to serve for three languages generally; that is to say, we have a French service at a certain time, an English service at a certain time, and an Indian service at a certain time. Each of the three languages at different times. Of course, in the outlying districts this is not so much the case, but here in Beau Bussin, Rose Hill and Curepipe, and such places, we have those services

14.41. How many ordained clergymen have you †→ 1 thank six chaplains and 11. Indians

14,417. (Mr. Woodcock Eleven Indians? 11 Indiane, and of course, a staff of caterhists

Yes. I um

not counting Seychelles, which is in the diocese, but not in the Colony

14.41% Sir Edward () Malley Does that cover the whole ground pretty well- the Hindi The Hindi covers about two-thirts of the Indians, and the Tamil and the Miss Horwood, whom I Telugu cover the other third saw yesterday, naked me tell you, if I had the chance, that Dr Milne has been very good in helping her, and she thought that recognition is due to Miss Brodie alan

14.419. (Chairman) I think we understood from Miss Horwood that Dr. Milne had been very good in helping her Yex.

14.420. (Sir Edward O'Malley) Miss Brodie is her assistant? Yes, her assistant

The witness withdrew,

Adjourned for a short time.

(19.)

PRANPAT RAMPRAL, called in and examined in private, interpreted by Mr MANILAL M DOCTOR.

14-421 (Chairman; I understand that you have some complaint to make to us What is your complaint?— In the first place, the French Law of Succession weighs very heavily on the Indian planters, and if the lands were governed by the Hindo Law of Succession or the Mahommedan Law of Succession, we would be better

In the second place, I say that sugar cane does not nff fetch the price that it ought to fetch.

(Chairman, to Mr. Manilal) I thought this was one of the men who you said had a specific complaint to You mentioned during your examination that mak. there were certain people whose names you did not want to mention, who had been ill-treated. Is this man one of them?

(Mr. Manital He is not one of those men who has been ill-treated in a specific manner.

Chairman.) He is only a man who just wants to We have already had numbers tell us what he wants

of witnesses who have told us that they would like to be free of the French Law of Succession. That is not You told us that you knew of men what we wanted.

who had specific complainta to make, and we want to know what specific complaint this man has to make.

(Mr. Manital) That will be elicited by questions put to him

(Chairman) I ask you to put this question to him to ask him what cause of complaint he has.

Witness.) in the year 1908 I had a complaint to make against the man who weighed my sugar cane, and I made that complaint to Mr. Davidson, of the trm of Messrs. Ireland & Company. Mr. Davidson found that complaint was true, and that man who was weighing the sugar cane was dismissed.

14.422. (Mr Woodevek.) What was the complaint exactly..-whether it was that the sugar canes were not properly weighed, or whether it was that the weights were false ?-The complaint was of this nature, that with the same cart and mule, when the sugar cane was weighed, there was a deduction made for the weight of the cart and the mule for the tare. This rate was, say, 600 kilos at one time, and when a few hours after or a few days after some 100 kilos more were deducted.

14,423. And when you complained of it your grievance was remedied by the dismissal of the man

who had weighed wrongly-Yes, Mr. Davidson sent him away.

14.424. (Chairman.) Where were the caber weighed P-Ju the Industrie Estate.

14,425. Where is that-what district is it in ?--Iu the Pamplemousser District, near Montagne Longue.

14,428. Was it a public weighing machine, or was it the estate weighing machine P-It belonged to the Industrie Estate.

14,427. That was two years ago?-In the year 1906. 14,428. Did you suffer any loss on account of that! -Yes, I suffered a loss. Messrs. Ireland. Fraser & Company, and Mr. Davidson, are very good men, they are honest men; it was the man who weighed the canes who was dishonest.

14.429. Were you there when the weighed P-I was not there.

Caney were

14,430. How do you know anything about it?-- They give a kind of ticket for the cart on which they mention that so much is deducted for the tare, and then on comparing the two tickets, the previous ticket and the ticket which was given to me afterwards. I found that there was this difference.

14,431. (Mr. Woodcock.) Did you sell your canes to that same estate last year P-Yes.

14.432. Have you any complaint to make about their treatment of you last year P-No.

14,433. Have you any complaint to make at all of any kind against any planter P-It is a general griev ance that there are two or three factories one factory in there, and another there, and a third elsewhere and these factories do not pay the same rates for the Augar canes.

Have

14,434. That is not the question I asked.

you yourself any grievance to allege against any other planter yourself P-I personally have not any com plaint to make,

(Chairman, to Mr. Manilal.) If this man has not got any complaint to make, we had better hear the next man.

(Mr. Manilal.) He will be able to my this, that certain small planters, who sell their sugar to the same estate, who are farther away, get the same price for the Bugar cane that they sell as he does.

July 1999a

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

P. RAMPHAL

Chairman. That will not help us. Sugar canea grown at one place are quite different to thòa grown

tanother, they are not all of the same value

Mr Manital No, but he has got tenants who sell them canes to the same factory, and do not get the

That is the complaint pr that he gets

Chairman) That may be because one man may mature his Land, and the canes may be much more valuable than those not manured. I saw some canes p here yesterday that were not worth cutting, because the planters did not take any care, they were all over-

Tha! is wn with grass.

111 ve to us Has he mything himself that he wants to complain about F

Mr. Manilaly He knows this for himself, that his own land he has let part of the land to some ther people, he gets a certain price for the sugar canes of the same quality as their sugar canes, and they do not get that price

(Mr. Woodcock) Then they had better sell their canes to the same people

(Chairman) They can take them somewhere else. Why do not they do that?

Mr. Manilal.) They have borrowed money from The estate, they have purchased salt, and they have purchased guano from the estate, and they are bound to sell them to the estate

(Mr. Woodcock.) Then there are so many considera- tons that we cannot ask him any questions unless we have the whole story before us. You said that you had small planters who had specific complaints to Have make to us of the way they had been treated. you got such people?

(Mr. Manilal.) I have not got the people who themselves have suffered in this way, except one, but they know that their tenants have suffered a loss; that they get a price and their tenunts do not got the sume price.

(Mr. Woodcock) But that may be due to a whole lot of circumstances into which we cannot inquire. That is my view. I do not know whether it is the view of my brother Commissionera.

(Sir Edward O'Malley.) You see the difficulty. The difficulty is. these things, if they mean anything, mean something which amounts to a very distinct act on the part of the person who is buying the cauea.

(Mr. Manilal.) Yes.

(Sir Edward O'Malley) In order to establish such an act. or. at all events, to act upon such an act as if it was true, we must have it established by the surt of evidence that we should want in a court of law; it is no mere matter of hearsay, no mere matter of opinion, but we want facts from the people who person- ally know, in order that such a case may be made out, if it can be, and we should want of course to show that that was a practice from which this class is suffering: We call that it had happened in a great many cases. only do that by having the people before us who have O experienced that sort of treatment. You see this man does not pretend to say that this sort of thing has happened to himself personally, all he can do is to any. I know that people situated near me, whose canes are probably of the same value as mine, who have been under terms with the same mill-owner-1 being a free min and they being under terms-have not got the same price for their canes as I have.

It may be that

the bargain was with those men I will lend you su much money; you shall pay me so much interest and I will give you so much less than the current rate when the time comes to sell your angar. We want all that information before us from the parties affected.

(Mr. Manilal.) I do not know whether this witness knowe it, but there is another witness who has stood as a guarantee for a small plantar, a tenant of his, saying that he will be responsible for the selling of that sugar cane to that estate, because this man had bought salt from the sugar estate and he had to pay more than the market price of the salt; he had to pay exorbitant interest on the price of that salt, and he would be allowed to send canoa cheaper than this man, I think.

(Mr. Woodcock.) That constantly happens. A man wants to borrow a large sum of money on a ship in England and he cannot get that large sum of money lent to him in the ordinary way of business, but there

79

[Continued

are people who will lend him that large sum of money on the terms that he will buy all the provisions for his ship from them at certain rates; that he will do all the insuring of his ship through them, and, in short, that he must do everything that concerns the ship through them on certain rates. Such a transaction is perfectly honest. If you could show that it was being done in this island under circumstances which amounted to an estraordinary hardship, it would go to be relevant to the question whether or not a loan ought to be granted to small planters to relieve them from that, but we should have to have direct evidence of that, and this man cannot give it. That is my view

How many

14,435 (Chairman, to the Witness.) years have you been selling canes ?—About 20 years.

14,436 And during 20 years once the weighing hus been wrong-Once it was found out, because I compared the tickets, but the managers of the sugar estates do not allow a man to be present at the time

If a when the sugar canes are weighed.

man goes there, then he is turned out.

14,437. You said just now that you had been selling

your canes to Messrs. Ireland, Fraser & Co., did you not, and you said they were very honest people. What

are you suggesting now ?-Messrs. Ireland. Fraser & Co. are very honest people, but then the manager does not listen to my complaints and there. fore I have to go to Messrs. Ireland, Fraser & Co., and that manager is in the habit of not allowing anyone to be present at the time that the sugar cane is weighed. That has been repeated to me by several people, that their canes have been weighed without their having, been allowed to be present.

14,438. We do not want that so much as this: Has their manager ever forbidden you to be present when your canes were weighed P-I can be present each time that my carts are sent.

(Mr. Woodcock.) Do they forbid your clerks to be present or your representative ?

14,489. (Chairman.) Why do not you go; have not you time to go, or what I do not go with all my carts; I weigh my sugar cane beforehand, and some- times when I find that the weight given by the manager is not the same as the weight that I had found at my place, then I make a complaint.

14,440. And then what happens when you make the complaint-The manager does not listen to my complaint, and therefore I have to go to Mesara. Ireland, Fraser & Co.

14,441. Quite so, but you are not present whẹn your canes are weighed on the estate because you do not go, not because they do not let you go?-The estate has not prohibited me from being present.

14,442. Quite no. Then do you send someone to represent you when the canes are being weighed P There is the carter who goes with the canes; the carter is your own man ?—Yes, he is present.

14,443. Then what have you got to say? There is no good you telling us that you are not allowed to be present P-You

14,444. Then do not you see that it is very wrong of you to suggest to us that you cannot be present there? You can be present. If you do not choose to go, it is your own business ?--Yes, it is so.

14,445. (Mr. Woodcock.) How much land do you cultivate P—About 100 arpenta.

14,446. What price did you get last year for your canes P-I got Ra. 8 for part of my sugar cane and Rs. 8 50 c. for some other part of thề sugar cane.

14,447. I do not think you have very much to complain of. I do not want to ask you anything more-There are some lands which are smaller in extent than my own, and yet those lands are considered sugar estates, and those lands which are considered Bugar estates have the right of having their carriages undeclared, that is to say, they have not got to pay a certain tax for declaration; whilat, although I own land larger in extent than certain other people whose lands are called sugar estates, I am obliged to pay that duty upon declaring my carts.

14,448. (Chairman.) That is a reasonable complaint, but what do you mean by that? Do you mean for the carts that you use inside your estate, or on the publis