1974 — Page 115

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 115 of 187

192

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. CHARLES C. C. SIN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask supplementaries on Mr. BERNACCHI's personal statement that he said is part of his answer. Firstly, is it not true that the Advisers to the Select Committee knew what items had to be bought in the interests of this Council?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I would not answer "Yes" to that question the way that it is framed. The Advisers advised the Council on certain specific items which they thought would be of value to be bought. As I have said in my answer to the question, I did not have the opportunity of having the Advisers with me at the auction itself to enquire about the two items they had not considered and that have since been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council.

MR. SIN (in English):—Arising from Mr. BERNACCHI's answer, isn't it true that it is not the case that the Advisers did not discuss the two items that were purchased, but simply did not advise the Select Committee to buy these two items?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I do not think that is entirely correct. The items as a whole amounted to several hundred. The Advisers took the positive course of advising the Select Committee to purchase these items that we eventually did bid for. I might say that one or two other items were discussed, but not the items that I eventually bidded for, i.e., the stem-cup and the two stem-dishes.

MR. SIN (in English):—Is it not a fact that in purchasing items, not advised by Advisers, is a clear breach of our Financial By-laws?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I am not the legal adviser to this Council. The Principal Crown Counsel is the legal adviser and I think that you must ask him.

MR. SIN (in English):—I would like to ask Mr. BERNACCHI on the sub-paragraph of his statement saying "that a number of letters have been written to the press, some of them clearly from people with an axe to grind which are likely to mislead the public." Is Mr. BERNACCHI suggesting that when the Council spends public money, the public is not entitled to know how the money is spent?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I am not suggesting that, but I am suggesting that from the detailed information contained in the letters, there must have been reasons not merely by an outsider. I am not suggesting, I repeat, that the public cannot have a say and, indeed, criticize the Council or myself in the buying of antiques.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

193

MR. SIN (in English):—The detailed information which Mr. BERNACCHI just referred to, was it not that two items were bought without the advice of the Advisers and one item was bought exceeding the price recommended?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—There is much more detailed information than that, especially in a letter appearing originally in the “H. K. Standard” and subsequently in the “Star”.

MR. SIN (in English):—Finally, isn't there a typing mistake in the statement, in the last sentence of the 7th paragraph. The paragraph starts "The argument, however, centres" and ends with the words "to which we disregarded the Advisers". Surely the word "we" should be Mr. BERNACCHI himself, not the Select Committee.

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I think I would agree with you. Yes, because it is a personal statement.

MR. H. M. G. FORSGATE (in English):—Mr. Chairman, could Mr. BERNACCHI clarify that one of the lots bought were bought at the price considerably below what the Advisers estimated the auction price would go to? Therefore, would he also comment on the auction that he has been to that there are swings and roundabouts?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I confirm that one of the items was purchased at a considerably lower price than the Advisers advised to go up to, and I would also confirm that any auction, particularly that kind of auction, there are swings and roundabouts and I had that in mind when I did bid over the price advised by the Advisers for the vase in question.

MR. FORSGATE (in English):—As the Chairman of the Select Committee bidding on behalf of the Council, you took the view, I presume, that the advisers are giving advice by no means infallible and your assumption was borne out by the earlier prices of the auction.

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—That is correct.

DR. DENNY M. H. HUANG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, the explanation given by Mr. BERNACCHI to the question is why he bid £8,500. I want to ask Mr. BERNACCHI whether this has been raised by the Select Committee or whether this was thought about afterwards? The second question is does the vase belong personally to Mr. BERNACCHI or to this Council?

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Page 115 of 187 192 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. CHARLES C. C. SIN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask supplementaries on Mr. BERNACCHI's personal statement that he said is part of his answer. Firstly, is it not true that the Advisers to the Select Committee knew what items had to be bought in the interests of this Council? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I would not answer "Yes" to that question the way that it is framed. The Advisers advised the Council on certain specific items which they thought would be of value to be bought. As I have said in my answer to the question, I did not have the opportunity of having the Advisers with me at the auction itself to enquire about the two items they had not considered and that have since been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. MR. SIN (in English):—Arising from Mr. BERNACCHI's answer, isn't it true that it is not the case that the Advisers did not discuss the two items that were purchased, but simply did not advise the Select Committee to buy these two items? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I do not think that is entirely correct. The items as a whole amounted to several hundred. The Advisers took the positive course of advising the Select Committee to purchase these items that we eventually did bid for. I might say that one or two other items were discussed, but not the items that I eventually bidded for, i.e., the stem-cup and the two stem-dishes. MR. SIN (in English):—Is it not a fact that in purchasing items, not advised by Advisers, is a clear breach of our Financial By-laws? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I am not the legal adviser to this Council. The Principal Crown Counsel is the legal adviser and I think that you must ask him. MR. SIN (in English):—I would like to ask Mr. BERNACCHI on the sub-paragraph of his statement saying "that a number of letters have been written to the press, some of them clearly from people with an axe to grind which are likely to mislead the public." Is Mr. BERNACCHI suggesting that when the Council spends public money, the public is not entitled to know how the money is spent? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I am not suggesting that, but I am suggesting that from the detailed information contained in the letters, there must have been reasons not merely by an outsider. I am not suggesting, I repeat, that the public cannot have a say and, indeed, criticize the Council or myself in the buying of antiques. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 193 MR. SIN (in English):—The detailed information which Mr. BERNACCHI just referred to, was it not that two items were bought without the advice of the Advisers and one item was bought exceeding the price recommended? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—There is much more detailed information than that, especially in a letter appearing originally in the “H. K. Standard” and subsequently in the “Star”. MR. SIN (in English):—Finally, isn't there a typing mistake in the statement, in the last sentence of the 7th paragraph. The paragraph starts "The argument, however, centres" and ends with the words "to which we disregarded the Advisers". Surely the word "we" should be Mr. BERNACCHI himself, not the Select Committee. MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I think I would agree with you. Yes, because it is a personal statement. MR. H. M. G. FORSGATE (in English):—Mr. Chairman, could Mr. BERNACCHI clarify that one of the lots bought were bought at the price considerably below what the Advisers estimated the auction price would go to? Therefore, would he also comment on the auction that he has been to that there are swings and roundabouts? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I confirm that one of the items was purchased at a considerably lower price than the Advisers advised to go up to, and I would also confirm that any auction, particularly that kind of auction, there are swings and roundabouts and I had that in mind when I did bid over the price advised by the Advisers for the vase in question. MR. FORSGATE (in English):—As the Chairman of the Select Committee bidding on behalf of the Council, you took the view, I presume, that the advisers are giving advice by no means infallible and your assumption was borne out by the earlier prices of the auction. MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—That is correct. DR. DENNY M. H. HUANG (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, the explanation given by Mr. BERNACCHI to the question is why he bid £8,500. I want to ask Mr. BERNACCHI whether this has been raised by the Select Committee or whether this was thought about afterwards? The second question is does the vase belong personally to Mr. BERNACCHI or to this Council? Page 115 of 187 Page 116 of 187

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Page 115 of 1 192 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. CHARLES C. C. SIN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask supplementaries on Mr. BERNACCHI's personal statement that he said is part of his answer. Firstly, is it not true that the Advisers to the Select Committee knew what items had to be bought in the interests of this Council? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):---I would not answer "Yes" to that question the way that it is framed. The Advisers advised the Council on certain specific items which they thought would be of value to be bought. As I have said in my answer to the question, I did not have the opportunity of having the Advisers with me at the auction itself to enquire about the two items they had not considered and that have since been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. MR. SIN (in English): --Arising from Mr. BERNACCHI's answer, isn't it true that it is not the case that the Advisers did not discuss the two items that were purchased, but simply did not advise the Select Com- mittee to buy these two items? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):--I do not think that is entirely correct. The items as a whole amounted to several hundred. The Advisers took the positive course of advising the Select Committee to purchase these items that we eventually did bid for. I might say that one or two other items were discussed, but not the items that I even- tually bidded for, i.e. the stem-cup and the two stem-dishes. MR. SIN (in English):—Is it not a fact that in purchasing items, not advised by Advisers, is a clear breach of our Financial By-laws? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I am not the legal adviser to this Council. The Principal Crown Counsel is the legal adviser and I think that you must ask him. MR. SIN (in English):--I would like to ask Mr. BERNACCHI on the sub-paragraph of his statement saying "that a number of letters have been written to the press, some of them clearly from people with an axe to grind which are likely to mislead the public." Is Mr. BERNACCHI suggesting that when the Council spends public money, the public is not entitled to know how the money is spent? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I am not suggesting that, but I am suggesting that from the detailed information contained in the letters, there must have been reasons not merely by an outsider. I am not suggesting, I repeat, that the public cannot have a say and, indeed, criticize the Council or myself in the buying of antiques. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL Page 115 of 187 193 MR. SIN (in English):-The detailed information which Mr. BERNACCHI just referred to, was it not that two items were bought without the advice of the Advisers and one item was bought exceeding the price recommended? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-There is much more detailed in- formation than that, especially in a letter appearing originally in the “H. K. Standard” and subsequently in the “Star”. MR. SIN (in English):-Finally, isn't there a typing mistake in the statement, in the last sentence of the 7th paragraph. The paragraph starts "The argument, however, centres" and ends with the words "to which we disregarded the Advisers". Surely the word "we" should be Mr. BERNACCHI himself, not the Select Committee. MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I think I would agree with you. Yes, because it is a personal statement. MR. H. M. G. FORSGATE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, could Mr. BERNACCHI clarify that one of the lots bought were bought at the price considerably below what the Advisers estimated the auction price would go to? Therefore, would he also comment on the auction that he has been to that there are swings and roundabouts? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—I confirm that one of the items was purchased at a considerably lower price than the Advisers advised to go up to, and I would also confirm that any auction, particularly that kind of auction, there are swings and roundabouts and I had that in mind when I did bid over the price advised by the Advisers for the vase in question. MR. FORSGATE (in English):---As the Chairman of the Select Com- mittee bidding on behalf of the Council, you took the view, I presume, that the advisers are giving advice by no means infallible and your assumption was borne out by the earlier prices of the auction. MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-That is correct. DR. DENNY M. H. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, the explanation given by Mr. BERNACCHI to the question is why he bid £8,500. I want to ask Mr. BERNACCHI whether this has been raised by the Select Committee or whether this was thought about afterwards? The second question is does the vase belong personally to Mr. BERNACCHI or to this Council? Page 115Page 116

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Page 115 of 1

192

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):---I would not answer "Yes" to that question the way that it is framed. The Advisers advised the Council on certain specific items which they thought would be of value to be bought. As I have said in my answer to the question, I did not have the opportunity of having the Advisers with me at the auction itself to enquire about the two items they had not considered and that have since been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council.

MR. SIN (in English): --Arising from Mr. BERNACCHI's answer, isn't it true that it is not the case that the Advisers did not discuss the two items that were purchased, but simply did not advise the Select Com- mittee to buy these two items?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):--I do not think that is entirely correct. The items as a whole amounted to several hundred. The Advisers took the positive course of advising the Select Committee to purchase these items that we eventually did bid for. I might say that one or two other items were discussed, but not the items that I even- tually bidded for, i.e. the stem-cup and the two stem-dishes.

MR. SIN (in English):—Is it not a fact that in purchasing items, not advised by Advisers, is a clear breach of our Financial By-laws?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I am not the legal adviser to this Council. The Principal Crown Counsel is the legal adviser and I think that you must ask him.

MR. SIN (in English):--I would like to ask Mr. BERNACCHI on the sub-paragraph of his statement saying "that a number of letters have been written to the press, some of them clearly from people with an axe to grind which are likely to mislead the public." Is Mr. BERNACCHI suggesting that when the Council spends public money, the public is not entitled to know how the money is spent?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I am not suggesting that, but I am suggesting that from the detailed information contained in the letters, there must have been reasons not merely by an outsider. I am not suggesting, I repeat, that the public cannot have a say and, indeed, criticize the Council or myself in the buying of antiques.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

Page 115 of 187

193

MR. SIN (in English):-The detailed information which Mr. BERNACCHI just referred to, was it not that two items were bought without the advice of the Advisers and one item was bought exceeding the price recommended?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-There is much more detailed in- formation than that, especially in a letter appearing originally in the “H. K. Standard” and subsequently in the “Star”.

MR. SIN (in English):-Finally, isn't there a typing mistake in the statement, in the last sentence of the 7th paragraph. The paragraph starts "The argument, however, centres" and ends with the words "to which we disregarded the Advisers". Surely the word "we" should be Mr. BERNACCHI himself, not the Select Committee.

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I think I would agree with you. Yes, because it is a personal statement.

MR. H. M. G. FORSGATE (in English):-Mr. Chairman, could Mr. BERNACCHI clarify that one of the lots bought were bought at the price considerably below what the Advisers estimated the auction price would go to? Therefore, would he also comment on the auction that he has been to that there are swings and roundabouts?

MR. FORSGATE (in English):---As the Chairman of the Select Com- mittee bidding on behalf of the Council, you took the view, I presume, that the advisers are giving advice by no means infallible and your assumption was borne out by the earlier prices of the auction.

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-That is correct.

DR. DENNY M. H. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, the explanation given by Mr. BERNACCHI to the question is why he bid £8,500. I want to ask Mr. BERNACCHI whether this has been raised by the Select Committee or whether this was thought about afterwards? The second question is does the vase belong personally to Mr. BERNACCHI or to this Council?

1974 — Page 115

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