HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I would seek clarification of the first of your two questions. The answer to the second question is that that, of course, is for the future. I would not like to see this Council deprived of the very, very fine vase, if indeed as a result of the non-ratification it were to be sold, but I am afraid that I cannot give any other answer to your second question at this time, but I would seek clarification of your first question.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Well you have already mentioned here that there is a person who offers £8,500, what is the worth of this vase, I do not know because I am not an expert, it may be worth £1,000 to £10,000, but I would prefer to rely on the opinion of the experts. As regards to the first question, I want to clarify. According to Mr. BERNACCHI's explanation, he does not know about antiques, but I think his explanation is sound. However, I wonder whether this has been raised by the Select Committee whether he has the power to bid at a higher price? His explanation, when this business was raised at the Select Committee, has he put forward the argument to the Select Committee, I hope I have explained myself.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I can only say that the Select Committee itself recommended ratification of all my bids and that the Standing Committee of the Whole Council had to ratify one bid that I made the previous year, in excess of the Advisers' advice. I do not think that the Select Committee was ever asked to authorize me specifically to exceed the Advisers' advice, but as I said, they did recommend ratification afterwards. Both yes.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I hope I can phrase my question clearly this time. The meaning of my question is that in the fifth paragraph, Mr. BERNACCHI explained why he put up the price of £8,500, has this reason been discussed at the Select Committee meeting?
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-Dr. HUANG, the fifth paragraph of my answer goes into the history of the vase itself. I did not have such complete information at the time that I asked for ratification from the Select Committee and therefore it was not raised.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I thank Mr. BERNACCHI. This helps me clarify the situation for if he knew it at that time and if I were on that Select Committee, I would have approved excess of this amount, but it was only afterwards that the history was known.
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Page 116 of 187
CHAIRMAN (in English):-Now to clarify. The history of the vase was given to the Select Committee by one of the Advisers at the time the Select Committee met. In fact, it has been reproduced now, due to research made again by the Chairman of the Select Committee and the staff who drafted the answer. But this history in its outline had been made known to the Select Committee.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I confirm indeed that one of the advisers gave a brief historical review of that vase, but I do not think, however, that he mentioned the figure in excess of one of these figures.
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in Cantonese):-Since Dr. HUANG's second question was not answered, perhaps I could ask a supplementary? The £8,500 less 10 per cent commission, I wish to know is it that person had written a letter to the Urban Council asking to buy this vase or whether the information had been passed to the Urban Services Department or the Council, so I wish to know whether this is a fact that someone has actually offered £8,500 to buy the vase by letter or other means?
CHAIRMAN (in English):-He wants to tong chi (means "notify") the Council's Advisers. (Laughter).
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I would say that I would not like in the interest of the personal concern to disclose any more information at present, but there have been negotiations already.
MR. CHARLES C. C. SIN (in English):-The phrase "swings and roundabouts" was introduced, I would like to clarify this. Was it not true that realizing swings and roundabouts in an auction and even auction fever, the Advisers and the Select Committee prior to the auction did agree on the basic price for each item and a maximum price above the basic price.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-The Select Committee, the evening before the auction, did agree on a maximum price to be bid and I exceeded that maximum price having regarded, as Mr. FORSGATE has said, to the swings and roundabouts of the auction.
MR. SIN (in English):-There was a basic price for that.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-There was a maximum price that was agreed.
(Dr. Denny M. H. HUANG left the meeting at this point.)
194
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I would seek clarification of the first of your two questions. The answer to the second question is that that, of course, is for the future. I would not like to see this Council deprived of the very, very fine vase, if indeed as a result of the non-ratification it were to be sold, but I am afraid that I cannot give any other answer to your second question at this time, but I would seek clarification of your first question.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Well you have already mentioned here that there is a person who offers £8,500, what is the worth of this vase, I do not know because I am not an expert, it may be worth £1,000 to £10,000, but I would prefer to rely on the opinion of the experts. As regards to the first question, I want to clarify. According to Mr. BERNACCHI's explanation, he does not know about antiques, but I think his explanation is sound. However, I wonder whether this has been raised by the Select Committee whether he has the power to bid at a higher price? His explanation, when this business was raised at the Select Committee, has he put forward the argument to the Select Committee, I hope I have explained myself.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I can only say that the Select Com- mittee itself recommended ratification of all my bids and that the Standing Committee of the Whole Council had to ratify one bid that I made the previous year, in excess of the Advisers' advice. I do not think that the Select Committee was ever asked to authorize me specifically to exceed the Advisers' advice, but as I said, they did recom- mend ratification afterwards. Both yes.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, I hope I can phrase my question clearly this time. The meaning of my question is that in the fifth paragraph. Mr. BERNACCHI explained why he put up the price of £8,500, has this reason been discussed at the Select Committee meeting?
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):--Dr. HUANG, the fifth paragraph of I did not have such my answer goes into the history of the vase itself. complete information at the time that I asked for ratification from the Select Committee and therefore it was not raised.
DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I thank Mr. BERNACCHI. This helps me clarify the situation for if he knew it at that time and if I were on that Select Committee, I would have approved excess of this amount, but it was only afterwards that the history was known.
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Page 116 of 187
195
CHAIRMAN (in English): -Now to clarify. The history of the vase was given to the Select Committee by one of the Advisers at the time the Select Committee met. In fact, it has been reproduced now, due to research made again by the Chairman of the Select Committee and the staff who drafted the answer. But this history in its outline had been made known to the Select Committee.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I confirm indeed that one of the advisers gave a brief historical review of that vase, but I do not think, however, that he mentioned the figure in excess of one of these figures.
MR. PETER C. K. CHAN (in Cantonese):-Since Dr. HUANG's second question was not answered, perhaps I could ask a supplementary? The £8,500 less 10 per cent commission, I wish to know is it that person had written a letter to the Urban Council asking to buy this vase or whether the information had been passed to the Urban Services Depart- ment or the Council, so I wish to know whether this is a fact that some- one has actually offered £8,500 to buy the vase by letter or other means?
CHAIRMAN (in English): -He wants to tong chi ( means "notify") the Council's Advisers. (Laughter).
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-I would say that I would not like in the interest of the personal concern to disclose any more information at present, but there have been negotiations already.
MR. CHARLES C. C. SIN (in English):-The phrase "swings and roundabouts" was introduced, I would like to clarify this. Was it not true that realizing swings and roundabouts in an auction and even auction fever, the Advisers and the Select Committee prior the auction did agree on the basic price for each item and a maximum price above the basic price.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-The Select Committee, the evening before the auction, did agree on a maximum price to be bid and I exceeded that maximum price having regarded, as Mr. FORSGATE has said, to the swings and roundabouts of the auction.
MR. SIN (in English):-There was a basic price for that.
MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-There was a maximum price that was agreed.
(Dr. Denny M. H. HUANG left the meeting at this point.)
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.