1974 — Page 114

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

# Appendix I

# HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

ciated if seen, and it is particularly distinguished by bearing the K'ang Hsi mark at the bottom. Only about one, of all the other multi-coloured "Famille Verte" vases that remain of the period, bears such mark. Therefore not only is it a very beautiful piece but also almost a unique one. This purchase has not been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. An offer to buy this vase for £8,500 less 10% commission has already been received. The two items purchased without prior advice were a K'ang Hsi stem cup and a pair of Ch'ien Lung stem dishes attractively decorated with small fishes. These were not on the original list of items to be acquired but were bought for £2,200 as there were no stem cups or stem dishes in the existing Museum collection. The purchase of these two items has been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. An offer from another person to buy these items for £2,200 has therefore already been refused.

It was also agreed by the Standing Committee that I should make a public statement on this matter which I have since done and now have the pleasure in laying the same on the table.

MR. CHOW (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, MR. BERNACCHI'S explanation has led to two problems. First, is the problem of excess money used and the second is the problem of responsibility. The money we are using to buy these antiques is the tax-payers' money and we should use that very carefully. As the Chairman has pointed out, we also have the responsibility to tell the public, if the public has any complaints, we should explain honestly without hiding any facts and also bear the responsibility and the consequences. The explanation given by MR. BERNACCHI is not satisfactory because the reason he has put forward has been considered by the experts and the experts have given us a certain price. What we should consider now is the fact that he has paid £3,000 in excess. What I want to know now is why he should pay £3,000 in excess and what are his considerations? Whether we have really revalued those antique pieces and, also, I want to know who is the one who made the decision. Was it MR. BERNACCHI himself or his Select Committee?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-To answer a very long supplementary, I quite agree with three-quarters of what MR. CHOW has said. I

# HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

Page 114 of 187

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-... would point out, however, that the advisers are there to advise, the Council may or may not take their advice as the case may be. I would confirm that it is my responsibility. I decided to make these bids.

MR. PETER P. K. NG (in English):--Mr. Chairman, since MR. BERNACCHI tabled the statement made by him previously, can I enquire if this statement is given as part of the answer to the question?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-In so far as the question asked whether I would make a statement it is, of course, to some extent considered as an answer to the question. But it is a personal statement made by me and not made in my capacity as the Chairman of the Museum and Art Gallery Select Committee.

MR. NG (in English):-Mr. Chairman, since MR. BERNACCHI has confirmed that this is part of the answer, I think I would not take it as a personal statement, but as part of the answer. In this connection, may I ask two supplementaries? First, in the original answer, part (v), when MR. BERNACCHI said the price was £3,000 in excess of the price recommended by the advisers and he took the decision, but can I also ask if the Select Committee before the auction also stipulated that MR. BERNACCHI or anyone to go to the auction not to exceed the price but to buy the antiques at the price recommended by the Advisers, was it correct?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-The Select Committee, in considering the advice of the Advisers, laid down before the auctions the maximum prices that we could bid and laid down that I should bid for the ceramics. As I have said in my public statement, I cannot convene a Select Committee meeting every time that I have a bid and in my opinion, rightly or wrongly, and I still think rightly, I did bid over the limit laid down by the Select Committee.

MR. NG (in English):-Thank you. I never questioned the right price or the wrong price, but I am now clear that MR. BERNACCHI did bid over the decision of the Select Committee. Now, the second point I want to ask concerning his personal statement which is part of the answer now. He stated that he has spent less than the Committee has authorized him to do so in the total amount, but I don't think the Committee authorized MR. BERNACCHI to bid for anything at any price so long as he did not exceed the total amount, is that correct?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—That is correct.

MR. NG (in English):-Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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# Appendix I # HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL a ciated if seen, and it is particularly distinguished by bearing the K'ang Hsi mark at the bottom. Only about one, of all the other multi-coloured "Famille Verte" vases that remain of the period, bears such mark. Therefore not only is it a very beautiful piece but also almost a unique one. This purchase has not been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. An offer to buy this vase for £8,500 less 10% commission has already been received. The two items purchased without prior advice were a K'ang Hsi stem cup and a pair of Ch'ien Lung stem dishes attractively decorated with small fishes. These were not on the original list of items to be acquired but were bought for £2,200 as there were no stem cups or stem dishes in the existing Museum collection. The purchase of these two items has been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. An offer from another person to buy these items for £2,200 has therefore already been refused. It was also agreed by the Standing Committee that I should make a public statement on this matter which I have since done and now have the pleasure in laying the same on the table. MR. CHOW (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, MR. BERNACCHI'S explanation has led to two problems. First, is the problem of excess money used and the second is the problem of responsibility. The money we are using to buy these antiques is the tax-payers' money and we should use that very carefully. As the Chairman has pointed out, we also have the responsibility to tell the public, if the public has any complaints, we should explain honestly without hiding any facts and also bear the responsibility and the consequences. The explanation given by MR. BERNACCHI is not satisfactory because the reason he has put forward has been considered by the experts and the experts have given us a certain price. What we should consider now is the fact that he has paid £3,000 in excess. What I want to know now is why he should pay £3,000 in excess and what are his considerations? Whether we have really revalued those antique pieces and, also, I want to know who is the one who made the decision. Was it MR. BERNACCHI himself or his Select Committee? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-To answer a very long supplementary, I quite agree with three-quarters of what MR. CHOW has said. I # HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL Page 114 of 187 MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-... would point out, however, that the advisers are there to advise, the Council may or may not take their advice as the case may be. I would confirm that it is my responsibility. I decided to make these bids. MR. PETER P. K. NG (in English):--Mr. Chairman, since MR. BERNACCHI tabled the statement made by him previously, can I enquire if this statement is given as part of the answer to the question? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-In so far as the question asked whether I would make a statement it is, of course, to some extent considered as an answer to the question. But it is a personal statement made by me and not made in my capacity as the Chairman of the Museum and Art Gallery Select Committee. MR. NG (in English):-Mr. Chairman, since MR. BERNACCHI has confirmed that this is part of the answer, I think I would not take it as a personal statement, but as part of the answer. In this connection, may I ask two supplementaries? First, in the original answer, part (v), when MR. BERNACCHI said the price was £3,000 in excess of the price recommended by the advisers and he took the decision, but can I also ask if the Select Committee before the auction also stipulated that MR. BERNACCHI or anyone to go to the auction not to exceed the price but to buy the antiques at the price recommended by the Advisers, was it correct? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-The Select Committee, in considering the advice of the Advisers, laid down before the auctions the maximum prices that we could bid and laid down that I should bid for the ceramics. As I have said in my public statement, I cannot convene a Select Committee meeting every time that I have a bid and in my opinion, rightly or wrongly, and I still think rightly, I did bid over the limit laid down by the Select Committee. MR. NG (in English):-Thank you. I never questioned the right price or the wrong price, but I am now clear that MR. BERNACCHI did bid over the decision of the Select Committee. Now, the second point I want to ask concerning his personal statement which is part of the answer now. He stated that he has spent less than the Committee has authorized him to do so in the total amount, but I don't think the Committee authorized MR. BERNACCHI to bid for anything at any price so long as he did not exceed the total amount, is that correct? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—That is correct. MR. NG (in English):-Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Page 191

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190 Appendix I HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL a ciated if seen, and it is particularly distinguished by bearing the K'ang Hsi mark at the bottom. Only about one, of all the other multi-coloured "Famille Verte" vases that remain of the period, bears such mark. Therefore not only is it a very beautiful piece but also almost a unique one. This purchase has not been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. An offer to buy this vase for £8,500 less 10% commission has already been received. The two items purchased without prior advice were a K'ang Hsi stem cup and a pair of Ch'ien Lung stem dishes attractively decorated with small fishes. These were not on the original list of items to be acquired but were bought for £2,200 as there were no stem cups or stem dishes in the existing Museum collection. The purchase of these two items has been ratified by the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. An offer from another person to buy these items for £2,200 has therefore already been refused. It was also agreed by the Standing Committee that I should made a public statement on this matter which I have since done and now have the pleasure in laying the same on the table. MR. CHOW (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, Mr. BERNACCHI'S explanation has led to two problems. First, is the problem of excess money used and the second is the problem of responsibility. The money we are using to buy these antiques is the tax-payers' money and we should use that very carefully. As the Chairman has pointed out, we also have the responsibility to tell the public, if the public has any complaints, we should explain honestly without hiding any facts and also bear the responsibility and the consequences. The explanation given by Mr. BERNACCHI is not satisfactory because the reason he has put forward has been considered by the experts and the experts have given us a certain price. What we should consider now is the fact that he has paid £3,000 in excess. What I want to know now is why he should pay £3,000 in excess and what are his considerations? Whether we have really revalued those antique pieces and, also, I want to know who is the one who made the decision. Was it Mr. BERNACCHI himself or his Select Committee? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-To answer a very long supplemen- tary, I quite agree with three-quarters of what Mr. CHOW has said. I HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL Page 114 of 187 191 would point out, however, that the advisers are there to advise, the Council may or may not take their advice as the case may be. I would confirm that it is my responsibility. I decided to make these bids. MR. PETER P. K. NG (in English):--Mr. Chairman, since Mr. BERNACCHI tabled the statement made by him previously, can I enquire if this statement is given as part of the answer to the question? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-In so far as the question asked whether I would make a statement it is, of course, to some extent considered as an answer to the question. But it is a personal statement made by me and not made in my capacity as the Chairman of the Museum and Art Gallery Select Committee. MR. NG (in English):-Mr. Chairman, since Mr. BERNACCHI has confirmed that this is part of the answer, I think I would not take it as a personal statement, but as part of the answer. In this connection, may I ask two supplementaries? First, in the original answer, part (v), when Mr. BERNACCHI said the price was £3,000 in excess of the price recommended by the advisers and he took the decision, but can I also ask if the Select Committee before the auction also stipulated that Mr. BERNACCHI or anyone to go to the auction not to exceed the price but to buy the antiques at the price recommended by the Advisers, was it correct? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-The Select Committee, in consider- ing the advice of the Advisers, laid down before the auctions the maximum prices that we could bid and laid down that I should bid for the ceramics. As I have said in my public statement, I cannot convene a Select Committee meeting every time that I have a bid and in my opinion, rightly or wrongly, and I still think rightly, I did bid over the limit laid down by the Select Committee. MR. NG (in English):-Thank you. I never questioned the right price or the wrong price, but I am now clear that Mr. BERNACCHI did bid over the decision of the Select Committee. Now, the second point I want to ask concerning his personal statement which is part of the answer now. He stated that he has spent less than the Committee has authorized him to do so in the total amount, but I don't think the Committee authorized Mr. BERNACCHI to bid for anything at any price so long as he did not exceed the total amount, is that correct? MR. BERNACCHI (in English):—That is correct. MR. NG (in English):-Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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190

Appendix I

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

It was also agreed by the Standing Committee that I should made a public statement on this matter which I have since done and now have the pleasure in laying the same on the table.

MR. CHOW (in Cantonese): -Mr. Chairman, Mr. BERNACCHI'S explanation has led to two problems. First, is the problem of excess money used and the second is the problem of responsibility. The money we are using to buy these antiques is the tax-payers' money and we should use that very carefully. As the Chairman has pointed out, we also have the responsibility to tell the public, if the public has any complaints, we should explain honestly without hiding any facts and also bear the responsibility and the consequences. The explanation given by Mr. BERNACCHI is not satisfactory because the reason he has put forward has been considered by the experts and the experts have given us a certain price. What we should consider now is the fact that he has paid £3,000 in excess. What I want to know now is why he should pay £3,000 in excess and what are his considerations? Whether we have really revalued those antique pieces and, also, I want to know who is the one who made the decision. Was it Mr. BERNACCHI himself or his Select Committee?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-To answer a very long supplemen- tary, I quite agree with three-quarters of what Mr. CHOW has said. I

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

Page 114 of 187

191

would point out, however, that the advisers are there to advise, the Council may or may not take their advice as the case may be. I would confirm that it is my responsibility. I decided to make these bids.

MR. PETER P. K. NG (in English):--Mr. Chairman, since Mr. BERNACCHI tabled the statement made by him previously, can I enquire if this statement is given as part of the answer to the question?

MR. NG (in English):-Mr. Chairman, since Mr. BERNACCHI has confirmed that this is part of the answer, I think I would not take it as a personal statement, but as part of the answer. In this connection, may I ask two supplementaries? First, in the original answer, part (v), when Mr. BERNACCHI said the price was £3,000 in excess of the price recommended by the advisers and he took the decision, but can I also ask if the Select Committee before the auction also stipulated that Mr. BERNACCHI or anyone to go to the auction not to exceed the price but to buy the antiques at the price recommended by the Advisers, was it correct?

MR. BERNACCHI (in English):-The Select Committee, in consider- ing the advice of the Advisers, laid down before the auctions the maximum prices that we could bid and laid down that I should bid for the ceramics. As I have said in my public statement, I cannot convene a Select Committee meeting every time that I have a bid and in my opinion, rightly or wrongly, and I still think rightly, I did bid over the limit laid down by the Select Committee.

MR. NG (in English):-Thank you. I never questioned the right price or the wrong price, but I am now clear that Mr. BERNACCHI did bid over the decision of the Select Committee. Now, the second point I want to ask concerning his personal statement which is part of the answer now. He stated that he has spent less than the Committee has authorized him to do so in the total amount, but I don't think the Committee authorized Mr. BERNACCHI to bid for anything at any price so long as he did not exceed the total amount, is that correct?

1974 — Page 114

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