538 THE HONGKONG GOVERNMENT GAZETTE, 16TH NOVEMBER, 1878.
coincide with what fell from the Honourable Member who spoke last at to the imperative necessity of having the separate system. I think it is the opinion of all the officers in this Colony acquainted with the subject that that system is absolutely essential. But apart from that opinion I would still believe that the association system is in itself a most unmitigated evil. Lord CARNARVON, in a despatch your Excellency read to us, said there were special reasons for the adoption of the separate It is perfectly obvious that the system among Chinese prinoners. One need not do more than allude to those reasons. results of association must be bad. But quite apart from its relation to the Chinese there are other reasons why that system should not be continued. In the first place I consider-and I believe it is generally held--that the association system renders the discipline of the Gaol almost nugatory, and that it throws on the officer in charge of the Gaol work which he has the greatest difficulty in fulfilling. He gets two or three desperate spirits mingling with the others who are capable of stirring up an amount of mischief which under the separate system is impossible. Again, there is the danger of associating with desperate and hardened characters those who have just embarked upon a career of crime. Chances are where you get hardened criminals mixing with younger offenders that the younger are turned out as bad as those they have been mingling with. But apart from the question of discipline, and apart from the danger of training up younger criminals, there is this, that I myself do not believe, as long as there is the association system, the Gaol forms much of a punishment. If men are allowed to mingle with each other and chat and talk, nearly all the terrors of the Gaol must be removed. As I understand the question, where the discipline of the Gaol comes in is where the prisoner is compelled to work, as a man must work if he is confined in a cell by himself: but where they can loaf away the time with plenty of food and association that they appreciate, nine-tenths of the terror of Gaol must be gone. If the separate system comes into force, it would necessarily, I take it, involve an extension of the Goal, but how far, is another question. There are always a large number of prisoners employed in necessary offices about the Gaol; then it is possible such a very large extension of the Gaol need not take place as was suggested by the Honourable Member who spoke last. On the other hand, as to what should be done for the extension of the Gaol, there is a consideration I should like to point out to your Excellency on which an inquiry could very properly be made, and that is whether such a large Gaol such as ours ought properly to be placed in the midst of a crowded town? I am informed all medical men think that is very much opposed to the best principles in reference to the placing of Gaols in tropical climates. A Gaol may be, and very often is, a centre of disease, and the question of conservancy of health is of great importance in a place like this. If the Gaol has to be altered, I think that is a question that ought not to be lost sight of. The important question, however, is the financial one, and an inquiry might very properly be made as to what the value of our present Gaol property is, what it could be sold for, and what it would really cost in the long run to remove the Gaol altogether. Of course I agree with the Honourable gentleman who spoke last that in years to come the increase of criminals would not be so great in proportion to the increase of the population. However, a question of this kind, involving a large sum of money, should be settled once for all. It is a financial question, as to what in the long run would be the cheapest for the Colony. It is possible we might alter our present Gaol to meet our present requirements; but my impression is that if the Gaol has to be increased the cheapest plan would be to remove it on to Government land where, if extensions became necessary they could be made, and, one might reasonably hope, by the prisoners themselves. When in Ireland I visited a Gaol, Maryborough, where not one single pound had been spent for 1-hour except in the bringing of the work, and there was not material, everything being done by the prisoners themselves. They all-beer` the slightest expense for bricklaying or anything of that kind. I would therefore just the wut the suggestion that if the labour of prisoners is to be utilised it might be utilised in making their own Gaol.
The ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE.-Your Excellency, I was not aware this subject was to be discussed to-day; had I been I I think none of us can have would have refreshed my memory with regard to what took place before the Gaol Committee. the slightest doubt whatever, and I entirely agree with the Honorable member who has just sat down, that the separate system is the only efficient system of Gaol discipline, and I think there is not the slightest doubt that for many reasons it would be the most deterrent system we could adopt for Chinese. If shut up in a cell for some time alone they would think twice before they brought themselves a second time within grasp of the law. It was a question we considered in the Gaol Com- mittee, though it was not quite within the scope of our inquiry. We took great pains to go into it. Mr. PRICE very kindly gave us his services and we found that by altering some of the wings of the Gaol about seventy or eighty cells could be provided. Well, we took upon ourselves to recommend that, although, of course, it was entirely insufficient for the whole criminal population of this place; but at the same time we did not think it right to put Mr. PRICE to the trouble and expense of providing estimates, because we did not know whether it met the views of Sir ARTHUR KENNEDY and whether it would be adopted at all. I must say, with regard to the remarks of the gentleman who has just sat down, about deportation, I cannot conceive there is any cruelty in deporting a man to his own country. Therefore, as far as the mere removal from this Colony goes, there can be no harm in it. When it was accompanied by branding it was a doubtful question, especially when the branding was on a part of the body when it could be readily seen; at the same time there are parts of the body with the system of photography where it could be placed without being so observable, but I do not know that it is necessary, the Police have for their identification. Again, with regard to deportation the Honourable member seems to think it merely accummulates a number of vagabonds across the water ready at a moment's notice to pounce upon us here. I admit that is possible, but at the same time I think if very severe measures are adopted when they are caught here they may be induced to remain in their own country. I must say I think it is worthy of reconsideration whether deportation after all is not a very good system indeed. I only wish to allude to one other thing and that is about Gaol labour. That is a question wê considered very much indeed before the Committee. We tried to consider every possible means of employing the prisoners in useful labour but there were so many reasons why it was very difficult indeed to suggest a form of labour which would keep them employed and at the same time be remunerative. I don't think I need go into the matter at very great length now, but it is really a very difficult subject. I understand we shall have an opportunity of discussing this at another time, and then I shall have an opportunity of expressing my views more fully. With regard to the removal of the Gaol, I think every one would be glad if it could be removed. I presume the Honourable member's suggestion as to removing the Gaol to another place refers to Stone Cutter's Island, but when we considered that question the extreme convenience of bringing prisoners backwards and forwards was found to be so great that we did not venture to recommend it. That was a subject beyond our inquiry, but we considered it and thought the plan of removal could hardly be adopted owing to the great
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