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THE HONGKONG GOVERNMENT GAZETTE, 16TH NOVEMBER, 1878. 537
a new site and the cost of a new prison; against which should be set the amount that would be derived from the sale of the present site and buildings. I need scarcely say that, in the event of its being decided to erect a wholly new Gaol, it would be undesirable to spend money on enlarging or converting the present building.
"In the foregoing remarks it has been my object to set before you what I conceive are the chief elements of the question for consideration, and before I arrive at a final decision on a matter in which the assistance of specific local knowledge is so material, I shall be happy to receive from you a report upon the comparative cost of the several proposals, and
upon the sites which seem to you suitable for a new Gaol, together with such further suggestions as you may desire to offer after consulting Mr. PRICE."
He there instructs me to consult with Mr. PRICE before making my final recommendation. Well, in addition to consulting Mr. PRICE, I am very anxious to consult with you and hear your views on the subject. The financial question is of very great importance. I mentioned to my Honourable friend on the right (Mr. KESWICK) in August last that the cost of the ground from the present Gaol up to Caine Road-I think it was something like $45,000 I said we would have to pay for that alternative scheme as regards the land, but I have reason to believe we might have to pay a considerably larger sum. On the other hand, if it is possible for the Government to adopt a site for which we should have to pay no money and sell a portion of our present Gaol site, I think it not at all unlikely we might be able to build a Gaol for considerably less than if we were to carry out the plan of advancing up to Caine Road. So I would ask you to consider this question. If we go up to Caine Road and the population of the Colony continues to increase, if we have a population of say 300,000 or 400,000, what becomes of the Gaol in Caine Road? You will have built a Gaol to accommodate a certain number, but you cannot go on extending it. On the other hand, you might get a site where the Gaol could be extended as required. These, I think, gentlemen, are considerations which it is my duty to put before you, and I shall be very glad now to hear the members of the Council, either official or non-official, express their views on this subject.
Honourable W. KESWICK.-Your Excellency, I was not aware that this subject was to be brought forward to-day, and I am not prepared at once to state all the views I entertain upon it. The objections which I have previously expressed are not in any way lessened by any statement I have heard. I think that there is every reason to try other measures than enlarging our Gaol to get rid of the criminal class. About twelve months ago I mentioned that I thought Gaol extension was the last thing we should consider. I should be glad when we next meet to state more distinctly how I support those objections, and I hope you will allow me in the meantime simply to state that I hold objections to the proposals that have
been made.
RIT
Honourable P. RYRIE.-Your Excellency, like the Honourable Member who has just spoken, I was not aware that this matter was to be brought forward to-day. I must certainly say my views are entirely in favour of the separate system. We ought to have a Gaol with sufficient accommodation to provide for the separate system being carried out thoroughly, and I am certain our Gaol as it is at present is not calculated to attain that object; but as far as I have gathered from my own observation, and from hearing the views of other persons, my opinion is against the removal of the Gaol from the present site, if by any reasonable expense sufficient cells could be added to carry out the separate system. As to the present building, I have been given t nderstand that you the cells on the basement now being made are completed, and the cells on the upper corrider dividec
bject to ection if I am stating what is inaccurate--370 cells could be provided, and with an additional wing fra 500 to 600 could be made. I am of opinion that that number of cells would be ample for years to come, as from the number of prisoners in Gaol, you have always to deduct the number of those who are employed in various offices about the prison, such as shoemakers, tailors, and those who undertake menial offices. It would not be necessary to put them in separate cells. Then those who are committed for non-payment of fines, for 'seven days or three days, would not need to be placed in separate cells. Taking all these together, my impression is that at all times you would have some eighty or one hundred to be deducted. For the remainder, therefore, from 500 to 600 separate cells ought to be quite enough. I would also respectfully submit that while we all believe the population will increase, when we get the separate system the ratio of the increase of crime to the population will be a ratio of decrease as compared with the increase of the population.
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Honourable T. C. HAYLLAR.-I may be permitted to say one or two words on a subject which I have had at various times under my own consideration, and that is, as to the relief of the Gaol by means which really permit people to be at liberty who ought to be in Gaol. Now there is a system in force here which has a double aspect, and that is the system which is generally known as the deportation system. Worked within certain limits and according to definite rules which have been laid down on more than one occasion in despatches from home, and by the Governor himself, I think there can be no doubt it may work a great deal of good; but if it is worked, as I believe it has been, simply for the purpose of relieving the Gaol of persons who ought to be there, I am of opinion it works unmitigated mischief. Various inquiries have been made at different times as to what becomes of people deported. If a man is a mere rogue and vagabond wandering about this Colony with no evidence against him to prove that he is a criminal although there is a common sense presumption that he is a man who cannot be doing any good and may be doing a great deal of harm, if such a man could be deported no one could deny that would be doing the Colony a great deal of service; but if there is evidence against a man showing that he is a person who ought to be locked up, and ought not to be abroad, and it is only for the purpose emptying the Gaol that he is sent away, it is throwing a great burden upon the tax-payers, because it must increase the work and responsibility of the Police in looking after a man who ought to be locked up. Besides, there is this to be said, who knows what becomes of these people? It is a question I have inquired into many times. There seems to be an impression that they go away. When there is a system of emigration going on, as there was a short time ago to Cooktown, a good many of them do go away; but if they go only to the other side of the water and crowd all the villages in immediate contiguity to our Colony they must be a source of continual annoyance if not of danger. They are people who have been in Gaol, they have learned all the bad that can be learned, and that is an element that strongly increases the danger from these people. Looking, therefore, at the subject from that particular aspect, I think we must all have in view in considering the question of the enlargement of the Gaol, that we cannot get rid of the criminals by any tour de force. It seems to me that the transportation scheme is a scheme that we must treat as being definitely abandoned. We have therefore to fall back entirely upon what is open to us, namely, the scheme of keeping people in Gaol. I most entirely
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