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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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ILHC.O. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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6 January 1915.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. CHURCHILL and 13 Others.

another 20,000 tons of coal we can go another week; if we get 40,000 tons we get two more weeks.

831. If we can allocate to you a certain number of ships, what is the smallest number which you think will be sufficient to tide you over until your expendi- ture will become less than your receipts?-Even on the week ending the 1st April our requirements are 30,000 tons of coal. That week we should be requiring the 20,000 which we are carrying ourselves, plus, say, five ships.

832. That is on the 1st April?--Yes.

833. Then probably from 7 to 10 ships now would make you quite safe P-It would not make us quite safe, but we would be able to work with less fear of eatastrophe than we have at present.

834. I can give you no hope of your being able to work up your reserve again; all that we can hope to do is to give you a sufficient amount of tonnage for you to be able to go along without any fear of catas- trophe, as you put it. If we could give you 15 ships I imagine then you would be able to work?-We would maintain our stock then.

* 895. And maintain your reserves?—Yes; that is really what the position would be; we should maintain our stocks. Of course, our stocks should be consider. ably greater than they are at the present moment, but that is an ideal state of things which we are not considering.

838. Let me go for a moment to anothor point: what about the loading in the Tyne? Is there any question about that P I have not the figures off-hand. How many tips are there?-(Mr. Kent.) A great number. There would be no question of that with that tonnage.

837. You have to consider not only your require- mente but all the others?-If you are going to give the normal number of steamers which run to the Tyne you will not be able to get coal because there are so few miners there at the present moment.

838. Where will you get your coal ---It will not be from Durham. The coal does not exist for the normal requirements of London in Durham to-day.

839. What proposals have you to make then? Because that increases the length of the voyage? — Certainly. Personally, I think that is the problem that is going to be insoluble unless you refuse to let more men be recruited from the colliary districts. In Durham they say 40 per cent. of the miners have recruited already.

840. Do you take the Yorkshire coal and the Northumberland coal -The Northumberland coal is not a gas coal.

841. The Scotch P-No; it is not used.

842. But it could be used?-(Mr. Watson.) Yes, but it is a very long voyage.

843. Yea; but needs must when the devil drives? -I think if you provide the boats we could undertake to get the coal. I do not think you need worry about

that.

844. The problem is all mixed up; you cannot take one part without another, because if you are going to double your voyage you want so many more boats. You must consider all sides of the question. What is the other large industry which requires coal P~~(Mr. McLeod) I represent the South Metropolitan Gae Company, which supply the southern part of London. The position is much like that described by Mr. Watson, differing only in figures. Our weekly requirements are 27,000 tons of coal just now, diminishing as the spring approaches. We are getting less than half of that. The whole of our supplies are water-borne.

845. Where do you discharge your coal?—At three points on the Thames.

846. Are they your own wharves ?—Yes.

847. There will be no congestion there ?--None whatever.

848. Is your labour question all right? Are you We could quite satisfied with that?-Absolutely. upload all the coal sufficient to meet our needs without any delay. With regard to the Durham position I may my this, having regard to what has been mentioned,

[Continued.

that I have had coal offered me this week from Durham at a price which indicates that it is not so scarce na one might suppose. Naturally without ships it is not much use to us because we have already bought a quantity there which we cannot get in to London. (Mr. Kent.) I did not mean to infer that there was not plenty of coal in Durham, but I was thinking of the normal supply.

Your requirements of 849. I quite understand. ahip in order to carry the con! that you want will be, I take it, from 11 to 12 a week —(Mr. McLeod.) That is so.

850. And probably five to six a week would, in the Bame way as I said to the Gas Light and Coke Company, tide you over up to the longer days ?—Yes.

851. May I ask what stock have you got now ?— We have stock which would carry us from five to six weeks.

852. The same as the other?-Yes. (Mr. Watson.) It is rather a better stock than the Gas Light and Coke Company's because our stock is only three weeks- 100,000 tons.

853. You have to economise to make it last?-- Yes.

854. Is there any other big coal consuming com. pany Mr. Stanley Jones) The Commercial Gas Company. We supply the East Metropolitan area. We have a stock of ubout four to five weeks.

We run

our own steamers. We have four which are still on service. Their average duty has been reduced 50 per cent. We have to charter outside vessels, and in our case our consumption would be about 5,000 tons a week. We require we have from 1,100 tons to 700 tons to charter one 2,000 tonner a week to keep up our supply.

855. Where do you discharge?-We discharge at our jetty at Wapping and also on the River Lea; but we also discharge through other sources-the Regent's Canal.

856. One ship a week would carry you through ?—— Yes, one big boat a week; that would satisfy us.

857. But you could use a smaller boat ?-We have four smaller boats of our own. In normal times they would carry pretty well all the coal we want, but the average voyage having been doubled at least, their output is half what it should be.

858. If we were to let you have some of the smaller vessels, two vessels of 400 to 500 tons gross tonnage, which would be about 000 to 1.000 tons dead weight. they would probably do for you !-Yes, they would

meet our case.

859. Is there any other company? What about the electric light companies? What coal do they require? -(Mr. Grimshaw.) I represent the Westminster Electric Supply Corporation. We get a good deal of coal from South Wales as well as the East Coast coal. We have not any wharves of our own, and it would be rather better if our contractor told you the position.

860. What stock have you got at the present moment ?-We have got a stock which will keep us going from three to four weeks.

861. What amount of coal per week do you require to keep that stock going ?-We are burning about 1,400 tons a week at present.

862. Then one ship a week will keep you going?- Yes. The great portion of it comes from South Wales. Some of the works in the centre of London are using Welsh coal.

863. Is that railway-borne or sea-borne !--- Sea- borne at present.

884. Could you give me any idea as to the propor tion of coal that you get from South Wales compared with that from the North Country -About 15 per cent. Welsh, and the remainder is Yorkshire.

865. I suppose it comes from Sunderland ?-- It comes from Hull.

ROMA

866. Perhaps some gentleman connected with the shipping side of the question might give us information -the contractors (Mr. Robertson.) Wa are coal contractors and we have a large number of contracts for various people. We contract with prac

6 January 1915.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. CHURCHILL and 13 Others.

We

tically every branch of the public service, the electric lighting companies, gas companies, the County Council, and the Water Board. When the war broke out we had contracts running to close on a million tons. have no ships of our own. We had nine or ten ships running regularly, and every ship we had running for us was taken by the Admiralty, so that the supply was entirely out off, and we have had to go into the market and charter as best we could during these months. There are not enough ships to go round, and we have not been able to give those who contract with us the full contract quantity.

867. How much are you short, in round figures? I do not wish you to be very exact!-If I may speak for everal electric light companies whom we supply, I think I am right in saying that they have not been getting more than about 50 per cent. during the last two months at least that is 50 per cent. of their usual quantity. I know of several electric light companies which have from two to three weeks stock, and are only getting 50 per cent. of their normal requirements. 868. You would have to go into the shipping market, even supposing we put these ships on the market, and contract with the shipowners who are runing them to take them up. You do not run the ships yourselves?-Well, we are running some ship: ourse'ves; we have some on time charter.

869. What we should have to do would be to let these ships out on time charter ?-That would get over the difficulty.

870. Have you had any of these German ships which are retained to the end of the war looked at? Do you know any which are suitable for your purpose?— There are several which are suitabl's for the cosl trade.

871. I think most of the smaller ships as far as I know are in the coal trade in the ordinary course of things. They run ma'nly between this country and North Germany with coal PAs a matter of fact, nearly all the ships that are suitable are running for the Admiralty, and the ships in the corl trade now are most unsuitable.

872. That is as far as our own ships are concerned. but I am talking of the German ships which the Admiralty have not taken up. Do they not as matter of fact, in time of peace, run with coals very largely F-Many of them do, yes.

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873. They are more or less suitable?-Oh, yet; they can all be made use of.

874. I suppose with regard to the method of dis. charge nowadays, you do not want vessels with winches and hoists ?--No.

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875. It is all done by grabs ?—Yes.

876. So that really all that is necessary is that the ship has sufficiently large hatchways and no obstruction inside to prevent the coal going there ?—That is all.

877. Any ordinary merchant ship with clear holds would be suitable ?-(Mr. Kent.) I think that is going a little far.

878. I am not putting the ideal to you, of course? We -We had a little experience the other day. bought up what is supposed to be a collier; she met with about 6001. worth of damage in being discharged by graba. The owners of the wharf said she was quite an unsuitable boat for to-day's machinery. The owners said she was perfectly suitable, but I think we had to

jmy.

879. There must have been some reason for it P She is not what we call a self-trimming collier; that is, her hatchways are not very big, and there is a certain umount of obstruction in the holds.

880. That is exactly what I said you want: you want big hatchwaya and no obstruction in the holds !-- Yes; but the Admiralty have all those boats.

881. But they have not taken the German boats?— Quite so. May I say there are several other gas com- panies which have not been mentioned, which are in very much the same position. (Mr. Grimshaw.) And also a number of electric light companies. I have only mentioned one.

[Continued.

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882. What I rather want to get at is some sort of idea as to the amount of coal which is wanted to be brought into the Thames per week in the aggregate ?— (Mr. Kent.) It is not only the Thames; there is the South Coast as well-Portsmouth, Southampton, and

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883. I am immediately concerned with London !-- Quite so.

884. What I wanted to see is what are the neces- sities of London, because it is much more important to keep London going than it is some of the South Coast places, although I suppose a man from Brighton would tell you that Brighton is the most impor aut place-But Portsmouth and Southampton are im portant.

895. I want to get the largest demand first of all and then we can see how to meet that and put the surplus over ?-In London there are works at Brent- ford and Tottenham; Tottenham are in a particularly critical position, on the north side of the river, and there are a great number of smaller works.

886. Can you give me any det in the aggregate of what is required for the Thimes?-For gas soal, sea-borne to the Thames ?

897. Yes, gas coal and electric light coal, to be brought into the Thames per week P-(Mr. Watson.) 80,00) to 90,000 tons a week for gas.

838. And electric light P-No; we do not know what the electric light is.

889 At the present moment you are only getting half? Yes. (Mr. Kent.) There has been bunkering of ate.mers in London too. That would be a matter of about 30,000 to 40,000 tons a week, liners and so on. (Mr Spiller.) I represent Messrs. William Cory and Son, Limited. Probably we are more largely concerned than other coal contractors. If you are trying to arrive at the figure, I think I should say that we do more than the actual gas and electric lighting companies and we should probably require slut 10 to 20 boats a week of 2,000 tons each to bring us up to the more normal time.

890. You must not be optimistic; we cannot give you everything -The Admiralty have got a large number of our boats.

891. I know. You say you want 10-I should say a minimum of 10 to ease the situation in any degree. I would like you to understand that that is not wholly attributable to gas and electric lighting companies; that is general contract requirements. (Mr. Robertson.) I think it ought to be pointed out that there are other concerns quite as important as gas and electric lighting companies. For instance, there are the County Council and the Water Board.

892. Oh, yes; that is exactly what I want to get at. I want to get at the total. I have gone into the ques- tion to get some idea as to what the requirements are to keep light and power going in London so far as gue and electricity are concerned. I want to get at the total amount of coal that is required to be brought into the Thames during the week in order to keep the industrial life of London going. You say from 20,000 to 30,000 tons a week ?--(Mr. Speller.) That is 10 to 20 boats a minimum of 10. That is additional to what is running now. I am not dealing with that, because we have a fleet of over 20 boats running now. This is additional.

893. Yes, I do not want to go into the point as to what are running at the present moment; I want to know what is required additionally. Now is there any. body else who can complete that figure?-(Mr. F. Locket.) We are not quite in the same position as Messrs. William Cory, but we are very much in the same position as Messrs. Hudson. We have not got boats of our own. We were treated in exactly the same way when war broke out; we lost the whole of our tonnage in a similar way to that to which Mr. Robertson his referred. In the meantime we thrown on the open market, and if you can relieve us in any way by giving us two or three hosts on time charter, I have not the slightest doubt we can then relieve, or hip to relieve, several of these electric lighting companies, leaving out the gas companies

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