CO885-24 — Page 345

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference:-

C.O. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

44

6 January 1915.]

OVERSEA TRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. CHURCHILL and 13 Others.

altogether, with whom, I take it, you will deal direct. In letting these boats on time charter, unless they are eminently suited for the coal trade, instead of taking the abnormal time they now take of nine days for the voyage, they may take a fortnight, or even more.

894. We all recognise that!-And if we are all going to have these boats, another point to be taken into consideration is this, that congestion may occur at some of these ports where we are only allowed to load at the present time during the day time. The hours of loading now are exceedingly short, and if you take the Forth, where most of the loading ports are closed, with the exception of Burntisland, Methil and Leith, if we throw additional tonnage on those three ports to load eight hours a day, the detention there will be even greater than it is now.

895. The congestion at the present moment up in the northern ports, I think, is almost entirely due to the overses trade, is it not?-I think it is, but in letting these boats on time charter all I want to point out is that that ought to be taken into account.

46. You say you would be satisfied for dealing with the electric lighting companies that you serve. with three boats a week And the public service. I should be satisfied with two or three boats per week, and we could probably take a smaller size than Mesara. Cory; it would suit our derricks better.

897. To sum up what we have been talking about, would a fair estimate of the amount of ooal which would be required to be brought into the Thames per week in order to keep the trade going, above what is at present being brought in, be about 100,000 tons a week? In my humble opinion I think that is rather over. estimating it. (Mr. Watson.) Frankly, I think that is rather over.

898. Taking what all you gentlemen have said and totalling it up, it seemed to me to come to about that, but I am very glad if that is an over-estimate?— (Mr. Spiller.) That is over for public services, I think, but not probably for the general requirements.

899). It is over for the public services P-Yes. 900. I have added in a certain amount for bunkers as well, because obviously you must keep the bunkering Do you think going. Call it 990,000 tons a week.

30.000 tons would do it ?—Mr. Robertson.) I think the total importation of sea-borne coal is about eight million to eight and a half million tons a year; that would amount to about 50 per cent of the total import, an it seems to me that that figure would be about right.

901. Well, we will try and work out a scheme which will give you something near that. I cannot say more than that. We have only a limited supply of

ships to draw upon. The total number of ships, I think, that will be available is about 35, all told. Of course, some of them are about the right tonnage ; some of them, I am afraid, are rather low, and I cannot tell you as to their suitability for the work. I know

■ɔme of them are all right, because we have had them inspected, but I am afraid I cannot say the same for all of them. Then there is the further difficulty of providing crews, and there I shall have to consult the shipowning interests and see if some of the ship- owners who have had ships taken away from them can help us, because obviously the Government cannot put the crews in. The Government cannot run those ships sa shipowning concern; all that the Government can do will be to try and get shipowning agencies, either firma or brokers, to take over the ships from us and run them and put them at your service. We will try and get this scheme out as soon as ever we can, and I hope with luck that we may be able to begin the service from the collieries down here some time next wook ?--(Mr. Watson. You would not put us in the position of competing with one another for these boats, would you?

902. There I cannot give you any reply, because it is a question upon which I must consult the President of the Board of Trade. I cannot say I do not know what his views on the subject areP-You want an arrangement to keep the public services going and you would not want us to bid against one another.

[Continued.

903. I will tell you frankly that I do not want to bring in severe competition, particularly at the present high rate of freights, because we shall get abnormal prices made which do not represent the true state of the market at all; but at the same time you must recognise that there are large expenses on these ships, and in order to get the ships running there will be still more expenses incurred by the Government, and there- fore we cannot let the ships out for nothing. One ha to strike a happy mean between the two. I cannot commit the Government or the Committee in any way at the present moment as to what they will do, but my own personal opinion is that it is more or less a Government service right through to keep this going. and I want to get it done on as economical lines as we possibly own P-(Mr. Stınlay Jones.) The idea would not be to sell the vessels to us, but let them to ns?

I

904. We cannot sell them ?-(Mr. John Ükarrington.) Can we hope that the colliers which are now running could be left to us and not taken over by the Admiralty 905. You had better ask the Germans that. talked to the Admiralty Transport Department about this question yesterday, and they were not very hopeful. They said they might require to take up some of these ships, but I hope that whatever we give you now you will be able to keep P-(Mr. Locket.) I take it that in the event of their being let on time charter the Govern ment would be responsible for war risk in connection with them as long as they were trading round the coast ?

906. That, again, is a question which is not decided. I think probably the Government will take the war risk?-(Mr. Watson.) Will the orews be engaged by the Government ?

907. No P-There are difficulties with regard to wages, and I take the opportunity of mentioning that. There have already been two rises of 5s. given, and now they are refusing to sail unless they get another 58, It is going to be a very serious question.

908. I know; it is going to be very serious indeed, and that has all to be taken into consideration. Of course, the ultimate result of it is that your coal is so much dearer?—Yes. (Mr. Locket.) There is one other matter relating to the crews, and that is the question of loss of life; that will have to be borne either by the Government or the charterer. That is a very heavy tax at the present time.

909. What do you insure at? The rates are all varying according to the trade that a boat is in.

910. Of course, it is very difficult to get the ship. owning fraternity to realise it, but if ships caly stick to the orders which they are given for going round the const they get in all right. Every single ship which has been lost through mince and in one way and another all round the coast, I think almost without exception, has been lost because they have not obeyed the instructions which have been given to them. Still those are all practical difficulties in the running of ships which have to be faced P—I do not wish to raise difficulties. They can be got over.

(Chairman.) Yea, and they must be got over; they are difficulties which we have to get over somehow.

911. (Mr. Roper.) As regards the question of the purchase of the vessels, of course, this morning we are only discussing interned and detained ships. It is open to any shipowner to bid for the ships which have been condemned as prizes which are being sold by auction ? -(Mr. Watson.) Yes; there was a sale yesterday.

912. (Chairman.) Were the prices high P--One ship, eight years old, fetched 23,000l. She is a very handy boat. Her value was about 15,0001.

913. Well, gentlemen, I do not think I need detain you any longer, unless anybody has anything further to say on the general question. I quite realise the importance of this question and we will try and get a solution to it as soon as we possibly can. As I said, without being too optimistic, I hope we may get some ships running next week ?-(Mr. Locket.) There is one other matter connected with this. We have to take into account the congestion on the railways. It may relieve it to a certain extent, but it will be useless for us to put boats into the Humber if the collieries have

6 January 1915.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. CHURCHILL and 13 Others.

not got the empty wagons to work their pits. I am taking the Humber as a typical case to-day. This question of empty wagons has become very acute indeed. The railway companies are not only unable to cope with loaded wagons to Loudou, but they are unable to take empty wagons down.

914. This wagon difficulty is an old one, but I suppose it is particularly acute just now ?-It means this; we have hundreds of railway wagons at the present time which left the collieries in November and December and have not been discharged in London up to date.

915. Why is that?-The railway companies inform us that they are unable to handle the traffic-that they have not the engine power or the facilities for doing it. An enormous amount of traffic has been thrown upon the railways, and in my humble opinion I think the public do not realise that we are at war; they take their pleasures as usual. There were apparently just the same number of excursion trains run over the Christmas holidays. The engines are taken to run these people backwards and forwards to their homes. It is true that is very nice, but if they were to restrict the passenger service materially over the holidays and on ordinary days, I venture to think it would be of great assistance, at any rate in regard to the goods trafic. In France they have only one or two trains a day, and their local service is very restricted. Our local traffic is running exactly as it was last year, and the main line traffic also, and the trains in the majority of cases are half empty. That is only the opinion of a man in the street.

916. I thoroughly sympathise with you. It is one of the great difficulties in our railway system. We have such an enormous number of trucks shut up practically holding goods for weeks when they ought to hold them only for days. That is a very old diffi. culty with railways. The thing is to see how it can be remedied (Mr. Watson.) Bearing on that, to give you a practical example, while the North Bea was closed immediately after the bombardment of Hartle pool, we had a small bost down here; we could not send her to Newcastle, but she could get to Hull; I immediately telegraphed to Hull to our contractor, She was a 1,000-ton and asked if he could load her.

boat. The answer was: "We cannot load her; we have no wagons." There is the boat absolutely doing nothing in London.

917. That rather points to one of the difficulties which I asked you about, namely, whether you can ensure the coal being put into the boats if we gave them to you? There are a good many companies which have Do private loading stations. We can get lots of coal. not let that check your desire to give us the ships.

918. Oh, no. If we can facilitate matters by bring. ing pressure to bear on the railway companies, of course, that is what should be done?-My friend, Mr. Kent. told me the other day that he knows of wagons of Welsh coal which started on the first week of the war and have never turned an axle since; they are used as storage.

919. By whom -By the Admiralty P

920. I know they have taken up a certain amount of coal trains. They keep them ready in case of emergency,

[Continued.

45

That is essential; they must do it. The difficulty is not what is kept by the State, but what is kept by the private individual for storage. This question came before me last year in connection partly with the preparation for war, and then we discussed the matter with the railway companies, and they agreed to enforce the payment for demurrage on the tracks instead of letting it ulide. The result was for the time being to release a very large number of trucks. The question is, is this payment for demurrage being enforced now ?-Speaking for the Gas Light and Coke Company, it is being enforced. After much trouble we have arrived at a system by which it is being enforced.

921. That is the only way of checking it!—(Mr. Robertson.) I do not think that the scarcity of railway wagona is due to the detention of the wagons on the part of private individuals, either at the colliery or at the discharging end. All the consumers are only too anxious to get the supplies. What is causing scarcity at the present time is the extreme congestion on the railways which prevents the traffic working in the ordinary way. There is so much movement of troops and movement of military material, which, of course, must take precedence, that the congestion on some of the lines has been something extraordinary, especially about Christmas time. We have been really waiting for our supplies, and us soon as the wagous have arrived they have been cleared at once.

922. Does not that point to this fact, that the railways are trying to do too much ?-(Mr. Watson.) Yes.

929. They are trying to keep the passenger traffic going --(Mr. Kent.) Yes, the normal passenger traffic, with an enormous inorease in goods traffic. (Mr. Watson.) Goods are more important than passengers now. (Mr. Robartaon.) I understood you to any there would be 35 ships available for the coal trade?

924. (Chairman.) Yes? I do not thiuk 20,000 tons a week would make any appreciable difference at all.

925. We ought to be able to do better than that?-- (Mr. Locket.) What is the average size ?

926. Dead weight I should think about 2,000. Bome

of them would be a bit more ?--(Mr. Speller.) That is 95,000 tons a week.

927. For instance, here is one which is available now; she is at Blyth. She is 2,500 groas; that is nearly 4,000 dead weight, probably about 3,300 P - - (Mr. Locket.) You can take dead weight tonnage at the average of about 2,000 tons per boat.

928. I think they would work out to that, and per- haps a little better ?-Putting it at that, 35 ships would be 70,000 tons. (Mr. Watson.) 50,000 to 60,000 tons, It would be'n great relief.

929. Yes, that is what we are calculating upon, about 50,000 to 80,000 tons a week?—Mr. Locket.) And that might relieve the railways to some extent.

930. I think with this relief we ought to do a good deal P—(Mr. Stanley Jones.) The days are lengthening and that wil help matters.

(Chairman.) Yea, the boat will get further in the day. I am much obliged to you, gentleman.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned sine dia.

F 3