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4 January 1915.1

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. S. GARRETT.

by one you would not mind, but I think I would rather have five or six,

(Chairman.) How Boon do you think we can get the ship away?

(Mr. Garrett.) I have got the money from America to-day, so that as far as I am concerned I am ready. I have to collect 1,5001. here.

(Chairman.) The sooner we can get her away the better we shall be pleased, and the sooner you can arrange all this and get her off, the better.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) This we can get done to-

morrow.

(Chairman.) As soon as ever this is finished we will send the men out and get her moved.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) As regards details we have got an order by consent for the release of the cargo as, I understand from these four gentlemen named as representatives in this agreement, that will be the simplest way.

(Mr. Tennyson.) Yes, unless we take it ourselves. (Chairman) I think the release had better be taken by the Admiralty, had it not? It makes no difference. (Sir Henry Johnson.) Then the ship has to be registered, the order for sale has to be rescinded-that is a formal matter and she has to be transferred by the marshal to Howard, Middleton & Company, Ltd., and put under the British flag. How long will these things take, do you think?

(Mr. Tennyson.) We telegraphed asking how long it would take ten days ago, and we have not had an

answer.

(Chairman.) We can stir them up again. We had better give them detailed instructions now us to exactly what is to be done and tell them to go and get it done, so that when we are ready we can send the men out by the next mail steamer.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) He told me last week he had his captain ready, and he thought from the time the Admiralty gave him the order of consent the ship could be off in three weeks from that date from Gibraltar, I thought that was rather quick.

[Continued.

(Chairman.) He certainly ought to do it in that

time.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) Can he get a crew together? (Chairman.) Yes, but there may be a little difficulty now, as there is a tremendous demand.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) This agreement we up to-morrow.

can fix

(Mr. Garrett.) My money is ready. (Mr. Holt.) Who will you pay the money to? (Mr. Garrett.) To Sir Henry Johnson.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) It should be paid to the Admiralty ho takes it there!

(Mr. Evans.) The Accountant-General; it is paid into the Accountant-General's account.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) We shall want the money at once; you must have it handy because we have to pay the contractor something almost immediately on signing the agreement.

(Mr. Garrett.) The agreement says "Pay to the Admiralty."

(Chairman.) It will have to go to the Admiralty. (Mr. Garrett.) I pay 12,0001.

(Chairman.) What is the amount to be paid to the contractor immediately?

(Mr. Gurrell.) 7,4701.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) 2,0007., I think, but I am not

(Mr. Garrett.) That is an instalment.

Burg.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) 2,0002. on signing the agree.

ment.

(Mr. Holt.) And 2,5001, on the sale.

(Chairman) (to Mr. Garrett.) There was one other point: you wrote a letter to the Committee about some insurance (showing the letter to Mr. Garrett).

(Mr. Garrett.) One of my partners wrote this; I can take any message to him.

(Chairman.) I think we shall be able to arrange all that, but we have to get the sanction of the Treasury first.

The witness withdrew,

Aljourned.

Wednesday, 6th January, 1915,

Evidence taken at the Fourteenth Meeting.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

VICE-ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.J.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).

Mr. G. B. BARSTOW. C.B.

Mr. W. J. EVANS.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

Mr. H. W. MALKIN.

The following gentlemen attended before the Committee:--

Mr. CHURCHILL, County of London Electric Supply

Company.

Mr. HUSTLEY, William Cory and Son, Limited.

Mr. D. M. WATSON, Gas Light and Coke Company. Mr. S. H. KENT, Messrs. Stephenson, Clarke & Co. Mr. C. O. GRIMSHAW, Westminster Electric Supply

Corporation.

Mr. J. H. GILL, Messrs. John Gill and Son, Limited. Mr. J. ROBERTSON, Messrs. John Hudson & Co..

Limited.

(Chairman.) Gentlemen, we have asked you to come here this morning to put before us exactly the situation that the gas and electric lighting companies are in with regard to the coal for London. We all realise it is a most important thing, and it is absolutely essential

Mr. G. ROPER.

Mr. C. TENNYSON, C.M.G.

Mr. L. D. WAKELY.

Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary).

Mr. F. LockET and Mr. J. C. LOCKET, Messrs. Gardner, Locket and Hinton, Limited.

Mr. MCLEOD and Mr. F. BAILY, South Metropolitan

Gas Company.

Mr. STANLEY JONER, Commercial Gas Company. Mr. R. J. SPELLER, William Cory and Son, Limited. Mr. G. BELL, Hammersmith Borough Council. Mr. W. HARDMAN, Messrs. Harris, Hardman & Co..

Limited.

Mr. JOHN CHARRINGTON, Messrs. Charrington,

Sells, Dale & Co.

that we get the coal through to you as soon as possible, and we hope to be able to assist you very considerably. But before we do anything we want to know exactly what the situation is, exactly where you are in diffi culties, and then we should be glad to receive any

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. OHURCHILL and 13 Others.

[Continued.

41

that you would get congested, because you are only interfering with other people ?-Perhaps I may explain, We make contracts with schedules. We have a larg number of contracts and there is so much scheduled for each month for delivery. Of course, the boats are unloaded and go back to the north, and are loaded there and come back to us as quickly as they possibly

6 January 1913.]

suggestion from you as to how you think we can best awaist you. Obviously, before anything can be done it is necessary to get at the facts as they stand at the

I will not take up your time with present moment. lot of discussion now, but perhaps you will kindly let The first u know exactly how the matter stands. point is that I hope you will treat what we say here to

can. We cannot let it get out into the day as confidential. Press or become public property until the whole thing is settled and approved by the Government. I have not the pleasure of knowing your names, but will some. body state the facts P

(Mr. Roper.) Mr. Watson, of the Gas Light and Coke Company, is here.

806. (Chairman) Will you state the position, Mr. Watson ?-(Mr. Watson.) Our position is that we re- quire about this time of year at least 40,000 tons of coal a week, and during the last month we have not been receiving much more than half of that, sometimes a little as 6,000 tons coming in in one week. I might say that the average has been something under 20,000 tons -15,000 to 20,000 tons. We have a certain stock of coal stili which could be available for about three weeks; after that we would be completely cleared out. There would still be a very heavy demand for gas, because that go on until the end of February and continues at a very high rate until well into April, so that there is no immediate relief by the falling off in consumption till late on in the month. We have done all we can to help ourselves by making a very large quantity of oil gas, and we have cut down the consumption of coal as far as we possibly can, but we cannot do any mure; we must send out gas that is fit for nie. It is now employed for so many purposes that th interfere with the quality of the gas would be disastrous.

807. Your gas cannot be reduced below a certain minimum standard P-No, by law. And even with all the latitude which at these times one might expect to receive, from the point of view of practice you must supply gas of a certain calorific value to be of any use at all, so that there is no relief from that. We have done our best also by taking up all the boats we can ut very exorbitant rates. For example, we fixed one yesterday at 8s. 6d. rather than get no coal we had to do it--3. being probably what our contracts are based on.

208. Even supposing you are willing to pay a bigher price, you cannot get ships?—No, we cannot. I understand the Government have taken over 2,000 ships. One of our shipping contractors who had 13 boats has only one left. They were all on the London trade, and now he is distributing that one boat; he gets it about once in six weeks, or something of that surt. Of course, it is simply useless.

809. Is there any difficulty, as far as you are con- cerned, in taking delivery of the coal P-There are so few bouts come forward. We have got a pier at Beckton, North Woolwich, where we have a very fine unloading arrangement, and can give very good dispatch, but the boats are so few and far between now that they are getting better dispatch than ever before.

810. If we can arrange to give you a more normal service of boats could you give good dispatch P Excellent dispatch.

No.

811. There would be no difficulty about that ?—

812. That is, if we can arrange to give you suitable steamers. Of course, I cannot guarantee anything at the present moment. But on the supposition that the steamers are fairly suitable, and you get a more or lesa normal service you could give good dispatch so as Dot to delay the shipa ?-There would be no undue delay. Of course, if a bunch of seven or eight ships arrive together they pannot all be unloaded at the same

time.

13. How many can you unload at the same time? -We ona unload two to three at the same time.

14. That you can arrange with the contractors? -Yes.

15. It is no good your placing a contract for the delivery of such a large amount of coal at one moment

* 25140-Ev 1 c

The weather sometimes brings the boats in in a bunch; we cannot help that. Barring that accident, which occasionally does occur, whatever we do we are bound to get congestion.

816. How many boats a week do you generally get P-I suppose we average about twenty a week.

817. (Mr. Holt.) What is the size P-They vary very much in size, from 1,000 tons to just under 4,000. We do not like to handle boate much over 2,000 tons

2,000 tons is abont the average. That is the kind of bost we like best. That is 2,000 dead weight. I have not said anything about rails, but the same difficulty is arising with regard to rails; a certain amount of cuel comes in by rail, about 3,000 tons a week; that has dropped off to about 1,500 tons a week.

Yes.

818. (Chairman.) That is due to other causes ?---

819. What is the length of the voyage?— (Mr. Kent.) 36 hours it used to be, but it is much longer to-day.

820. What I want to get at is the number of vessels that would be required in order to keep up this service? (Mr. Watson.) With us, we have about 20,000 tons in the normal way. (Mr. Kent.) I think you should take the average voyage at from 9 to 10 days. 821. You start from the Tyne ?—Yes.

822. The ship arrives empty at the Tyne?-Yes. 823. And what is the length of time before her next arrival in the Tyne P-9 or 10 days. (Mr. Watson.) I think I ought to make clear that that is if there is no closing of the North Sea. If it were closed for three days that would be added on. That is normal running, and probably it is stated at the very quickest with the Gas Light and Coke Company because we have rather good unloading facilities. Others coming up the river probably could not do it in the 9 or 10 days, and then yon have to add on a margin for the possible closing of the North Sea.

824. Taking it that we keep the North Sea open, for that journey of 10 days you want a very large number of ships P--We do, a very large number

825. What do you calculate you require ?-About 15 boats of 2,000 tons each.

926. Supposing we can only give you a proportion of that, what is the least number of vessels of that average size which you consider that you can keep your service going on?-It all depends how soon we are going to get relief.

827. Assuming we can start you off with a ship next week? Provided you can get the necessary crew for her, you may be able to get a ship next week to begin with. What I want to get at is what is the minimum number of ships, amuning that voyage, and asanming 2,000 tons dead weight capacity, which will keep you going without fear of having to shut down your production of gas--I have worked it out. At the present moment we are dropping about 20,000 tons of coal a week. We have 100,000 tons in stock to-day, That gives us five weeks. Then we would be absolutely without coal.

828. I do not want that. I want to know what is the smallest number of ships which you consider will tide you over without dropping such a large amount as to run you out altogether It is a very easy sum to do. I was approaching it in this way. If we drop 20,000 tona and get 20,000 tons, in five weeks we are on our beam ends. We only have coal to supply a half of the requirements,

829. But with an extra seven ships ?--It would make it go on longer.

830. You would be able to tide yourself over till the longer days come and your expenditure will not be so great - Yea, that is so. Every ton of coal we get in excess lengthens the period. If you send us in

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