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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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[「 • ] T CO. 885.

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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of the whole, so as to make the whole available in times of emergency, that we shall be in doing that, taking a burden upon ourselves. a burden which may be sufficient for us to sustain as regards this branch of the service for the present.

To set apart persons specially for service abroad is a thing which is foreign to the sentiment of the Colonies at the present tino. They would not agree with us if we attempted to make any such reservation. They would not like to see a difference drawn in any way between men who are serving in the same battalions or in the same ranks, or in different battalions in the same forces in respect of the purposes for which they were intended, because they wish their primary purpose to be considered to be that of the defence of the Australian shores, while they are perfectly ready in times of emergency, not to contribute merely a quota, but to contribute to the whole extent of their ability, and with a liberal view of their ability, when any necessity arises. Now these are the conditions which prevail amongst us, and I have endeavoured to point them out in order to give scope for general discussion, but I think the considerations which I have named point against any endeavour to set aside a portion of our forces for a special purpose, while they do point towards an assimilation on the part of all the Colonies concerned of their forces in respect of arms and equipment to those of the rest of the Empire, so that when the call is made the answer shall be as prompt and as effective as it can possibly be.

Mr. SEDDON: In the first place I desire to thank the Secretary of State for War for the able and instructive address that one and all of us have listened to with very great pleasure, and that liberal-I may take it- suggestion made by him on behalf of the Imperial Government will, as far as New Zealand is concerned. I think. tend to solve the difficulty which has stood in the way of giving effect to the report which was submitted to our Parliament, and the scheme which was suggested by myself with respect to having an Imperial Reserve formed in New Zealand. I think I may say that I am disappointed at the stand, or attitude of Canada, evidence of which was given explicitly and clearly by the Minister of Defence for the Dominion, and having the knowledge of his people, and the con- dition of things, it is not for O to attempt to controvort what he said; but I would point out that there is the danger which has been pointed out by the Secretary of State for War, and must say for myself that I did not take it froin the Secretary of State for War that his contention was that we could not equip rapidly, or the men would not be forthcoming; but I took it that his statement was explicit and, I think. well founded, namely, that you may have men in Canada within a fortnight or three weeks when you put these men as against highly-trained European soldiers. What then would be their position? The Secretary of State for War. I think, has put it clearly, and, speaking of military defence for the Colony of New Zealand; I take it that our forces-and reports will prove-1 can say that I think they will compare very favourably with the Canadian Militia, and yet I should be very sorry myself to see those nuen fighting in a large body against the highly trained European soldier. I think the same thing might apply also to the Colonjal Forces, that is the Militia and Volunteer Forces in Australia. and I have a very high authority on the question for Australia; I have Major-General French's Defence Scheme. He, I believe, was the Com- mandant of New South Wales, and in the scheme he recommends what has been suggested in the motion now before the Conference, and that which has been indorsed by the Secretary of State for War, by the War Office. and he gives very good reasons. for its being done in this suggestion, which is dated the 8th May 1900. and his scheme is practically almost on the lines which was submitted to the New Zealand Parliament, and upon which we passed legislation. I would ask that this report of Major-General French, or his scheme, might form part of our papers, Mr. Chamberlain, with tho scheme submitted by me to the New Zealand Parliament also, and later on thero are minutes upon the defence of Australia by Major-General Hutton, the Commandant, dated at Headquarters at Melbourne, 7th April 1902, and in this paper there is information which I believe will be valuable to those who now have the responsibility for dealing with this very large question. Probably it would be better if this, coming from the Commandant of the

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Commonwealth, should be handed in by the Prime Ministor of the Common- wealth, and he would then band in the paper from the Colony,

Sir EDMUND BARTON: I have had this.

Mr. SEDDON: I think it would he a very valuable paper if it were made a part of our proceedings.

Sir EDMUND BARTON: I have no objection, Mr. Chamberlain, to your circulating it.

Mr. SEDDON :

Of Also the other one from Major-General Hutton. course, he is for the Commonwealth, and it was sent to me in connexion with the scheme that I had then suggested, and we interchanged our schemes. I will now come to the necessity for supporting, as I do, the Secretary of State for War. First of all in your Volunteer forces, or your Militia forces, you may have trained, but you cannot rely upon the men going when you want them. It is all very well to strike the first blow, and strike it efficiently and proruptly, but you must have beforehand a force that you can rely upon going.

We, of course, did, the whole of the Colonies did—very excellent work, and we did it rapidly in equipping the men that we sent to South Africa, and for the particular class of lighting they were most suited, and most of the men that were first sent were well trained, but it cannot be said either by Australia, or by Canada, or by New Zealand, of the last men that we sent that you would take them as being the most effective or the best marks- men, or that they had received even an efficient militia or volunteer training. That being the case, I concur with the Secretary of State for War that under changed conditions it is better for us to have these men prepared and roadly, and that could be depended upon. In other words, 1 feel myself-I do not say it at all disparagingly-but there may be a difficulty in raising Army Corps which have been submitted for the Mother Yountry. There may be a difficulty in what I take it is this, that outside those Army Corps, under altered conditions, it is prudent, and to the best interests of the Colonies and the Empire, that we should have practically an armed corps outside the Army Corps suggested for the Mother Country That is the view take, and I will come later on to the practical difficulty; at least. I will endeavour to meet some of the suggested difficulties that have been put before the Conference. First of all, as to creating ili-feeling or heartburning in respect of the Militia, if men who are trained, that is, of course, some men are paid extra, and you will have this distinction of the two forces, and the distinction would create heartburning. Why, that obtains at the present time in the Colony of Australia-the Commoi- wealth; they have at the present time a partially paid force of men receiving 81. a year.

itself.

Sir EDMUND BARTON: About 6l. 10s.

Mr. SEDDON : 1 beg your pardon, 67, 10s, a year. Now, there is no heart · burning between the Volunteers and the Militia and that partially paid force at the present time. I believe in Newfoundland they have a naval réserve partially paid; at least, there is a sum paid anually. I have not heard inyself of any heartburning or difficulty in respect of that; and I fail myself to see where men have pledged themselves to a special service when called upon that there would be any difficulty as far as the men are concerned, if the question is put this way, stripped altogether of the Colonies, from the Colonial Governincut. Do we, does Canada, does Australia, or will New Zealand object to the Imperial authorities recruiting in either Canada or Australia ? We had better come down to the position. I say that there are men there, and trained men too, who would be prepared to serve outsido New Zealand, But why they should be treated differently to the ordinary Volunteer or Militia is this Your Volunteers, and I say it here, as Defence Minister for many years, where you are depending upon voluntary service you cannot get the men; the men cannot afford to give the time necessary annually to be trained

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