CO885-(7-8) — Page 612

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O. 885

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

70.

should reach the Colonios a few days earlier. Their interest in America is if anything to have the mail delayed. If any particularly important com- mercial question arose, dilatoriness would be of great advantage to them. I therefore say here plainly that that large subsidy is for the purpose of increasing American trade with Australasia. I had not the other day the quotations from the Senators, but I can give generally the statements that had been made in reference to the Subsily Bill when before Congress, before the Senate. Senator Gallinger, on the 17th March 1902, used these words:-" Mr. President, it goes without saying that if this Bill is bad for Great Britain and the Continental Nations, it must be good for the United States. Then I give the following quotation from a speech by Senator West, on the 10th of March 1902:-- We can exclude foreign ships from our coastwise trade, and no foreign nation can complain; and, of course, with the monopoly of building these ships, and repairing them, our shipowners have a harvest each year which they could obtain nowhere else." That, of course, deals with another question outside this, but these are quotations made when the proposals were before the United States Parliament, dealing with the question of subsidies, when brought in by the Bill now before thein.

+

Such being the position, the question naturally arises-and there is another danger that has since developed. I allude to the combines in respect to shipping. I look upon that myself as being a menace to British trade, more serious than anything yet that has occurred. I will only briefly touch upon the matter. I do not wish to take up too much of your time, because as I said before, you have considered this matter carefully yourselves, and you know all about the matter. We will take America as an instance in point. They have there the industries, at the present time controlled by the Bonds or Trusts or Combines. They have the railways under the same con- trolling power that controls the manufactures. They then develope further, and enter into a combine in respect to the shipping. That means manufac- ture, overland transit in America, and then sea transit. Already, as you know, large contracts have been entered into in Great Britain with these American Trusts.

You know also that in respect to bridges and engineering works that they have successfully competed for large contracts, even for the British Government, and it would no. surprise me, and you may laugh probably when 1 tell you, that I believe that you will have American coals brought over to Great Britain. In fact, I heard incidentally the other day that a large contract for coal for gas purposes had been male in Great Britain, and as they can place their coal in the trucks at about 48 per cent. less than we can, the difference, even with the shipping control using the coat as the ballast, the ling of goods otherwise carried, that combination makes it possible, in my opinion, to have United States coal sent to Great Britain. It may appear far fetched, but I say it is not altogether impossible with the develop- ments that are taking place. Now, the question of subsidising steamers and the advantages mean this: first, you can insure or make a term that these ships will carry the British flag and remain under British control; secondly, you can insure that provision will be made for these manufactures of Great Britain being carried to British Dominions beyond the seas. On the other hand, we in those Dominions can remain sure that wo shall have the means of bringing our products to our principal market, which is Great Britain itself, and then what I specially urge is this, that you can fix the maximum rates. We have already done that in our Colony in respect to some of the contracts entered into with mail carrying steamers. We have fixed at the same time that goods shall be carried and products shall be carried at maximum rates. I say that you have those advantages in the subsidising of

steamers.

The New Zealand Government are, for the purpose of ensuring an opening into the South African market, already subsidising. The Mother Country has not, I believe, gone in for subsidies, except for mail purposes, and has not done anything in the direction indicated by the resolution, and in asking for the extension, as I have said, it has a bearing upon the other proposals so far as these-tariffs are concerned. It might be, and probably it is possible at the present time for them to do anything to amend their finances in the

71

direction that has been suggested by the proferential tariff, but in the way indicated by the resolution I hereafter intend to move, I think thru they could do that, and, as far as I can feel public opinion in the Mother Country, of all parties would accept a proposal or a suggestion to subsidise. Other nations could not take objection in this case. It could not irritate them, because it has been a fixed policy with them for many years past. I do not like to quote as far back as the year 1885 one of the most prominent states- men of the Mother Country, but I could do so to show that this mattor is not now in Great Britain itself. The condition of our trade—I do not think it needful to go into that matte-I take it that one and all present have care- fully gone into the matter for themselves and must have noted that something should be done, and that it should be done spoedily I think is necessary owing to recent developments.

That being the case, I will submit the matter now to the Conference. Whether it should be done in the shape of a resolution. whether the Chainan proposes that we should have in this case general discussion first, and then subsequently move a resolution I do not know, but in the mean- tone I hope, with the information members possess, 1 havo indicated sufficient to warrant the Conference coming to the conclusion that the time has now arrived when Great Britain ought to grant joint subsidies with the Colonies, because the Colonies are already subsidising. Canada is already practically subsidising at the present moment. The Colonies intend to go further, aul for the second time ask Great Britain to join with us; she joined with us in the partnership of the Pacific cable, we ask her again to join with her Colonies in the interest of the trade of the Mother Country and the Colonies, and at the same time improving the means of communication and expediting that communication as between the Mother Country and the Colonies, and on that ground alone I think it is sufficient to warrant something being done.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: I agree that it would be desirable to-day to confine ourselves to the general discussion of the various points raised by Mr. Seddon, and connected with his resolution. In the first place, I should like to ask, or to make an observation or two upon the wording of the resolution, which, as it stands, is not quite clear to me; I would point out, that in the last paragraph Mr. Soidon proposes that the steamers which are to carry such mails are to be British-owned, and to be of such a class and Bo fitter that, in time of war, they might be armed and used as cruisers.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: May I ask you to read the whole of tho Resolution?

I

The SECRETARY OF STATE: Oh, I am coming to that afterwards. will take the latter part first; it is a matter of detail, but I would point out that our Admiralty do not require more than a limited number of such cruisers. They have no use for them, and those they do require must be of a very special character indeed, and probably would be unsuited for anything like a general communication between Great Britain and the Colonies. The very fast steamers averaging 23, or from 22, we will say, to 25 knots, are steamers of such power and charactor as would be quite unsuited for the Australasian trade, so that in any general resolution that we should pass I think we should have to omit those last words as putting upon the Admiralty a condition which they would not be prepared to accept.

*

Mr. SEDDON: I do not literally insist upon that.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: Then the essential, the substantial part of the resolution is "that it would be an advantage to the Empire to have "subsidised mail services established as between Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and Great Britain." My first remark is that if I accept that literally such services already exist, for instance, there is a subsidised mail service between Great Britain and Canada; there is a subsidised mail service between Great Britain and Australia, and I think also between Great Britain and New Zealand.

}

140

-