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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O. 885

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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The SECRETARY: No, sir, except as part of the Australian service.

The SECRETARY OF STATE; But the Australian service is heavily subsidised?

The SECRETARY: Yes,

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That

The SECRETARY OF STATE: So that in practice, therefore, the principle is already adopted. I assume, therefore, that all that we have to consider is whether any further development should be given to it. will be in part a matter of detail to be discussed probably as between each Colony and the Mother Country; we are at the present moment, for instance, engaged in a discussion with the Dominion of Canada with regard to a fast line of steamers between Great Britain and Canada, and in the same way we might take up the discussion with regard to Australasia, or with regard to the South African Colonies. Of course, when we know what are the requirements of the Colonies, what kind of service it is that they think they ought to have with regard to speed and capacity and frequency of sailing and other details of that kind, we can better see how far we can assist them, but in principle, certainly, there is nothing to prevent our taking up a question of that kind and giving it our fullest consideration. I entirely agree with Mr. Seddon that we are face to face with a real danger, which has developed especially in connection with the North Atlantic trade, but the combination which threatens the British North Atlantic trade might be extended and most certainly will be extended to other parts of the world. Already the American combination has come into possession of lines which are trading, I think, to Australia.

The SECRETARY: The White Star.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: The White Star. They are trading to Australia and the Mediterranean ports and elsewhere, and there is no reason why further extension should not be given to them, and we ought at all events to look the matter in the face, and ascertain the full danger that threatens us, and be prepared, if necessary, to meet it.

One point has not been touched upon by Mr. Seddon, but I'should very much like to hear the views of the Prince Ministers upon it, and that is with regard to any protection of our coasting trade. It is the fact, as he stated incidentally, quoting from an American Senator, that the American coastwise trade is exclusively reserved for the American shipping.

Mr. SEDDON: I have another resolution to deal with the coastwise laws.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: And the coastwise trade is interprete i as trade between America and her possessions, trade, for instance, between America and Samoa; and, of course, if we were to adopt a similar principle, it would make it impossible for trade between Great Britain and the Colonies of Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, and the Cape, to be carried in any but British vessels; now that, of course, was the old principle of the navigation laws; the navigation laws were repealed, I understand, largely at the instance of the Colonies; I believe it was com- plaints from the Colonies that competition was interfered with by our laws, which was the prime mover in the repeal of that legislation; now I should certainly desire to know whether opinion in the Colonies has changed on that subject, and whether now they would be prepared to suggest, and to approve, any alteration of our navigation laws which would confine trado between the different parts of the British Dominions to British. owned vessels; that is a very important matter; if we were to take that step I certainly do not see how any of those countries which have navigation laws of their own, and which confine their own coast-wise trade to their own vessels, could possibly be justified in complaining. That point, then, is a point for general discussion, but, as I say, as regards the question of subsidising mail lines, that I think can hardly be discussed generally, but must be the

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subject of proposals from the various Colonies for assistance, in regard to the particular lines of communication.

As far as the

Mr. SEDDON: I unfortunately did not make myself clear. resolution itsolf is concerned, I might have used the word "extension," but I took it for granted that these resolutions of course were made public, and haci no desire myself to go into detail further than to affirm the principle. But You have mentioned that you really what is aimed at is the extension.

You have the Suez mail contract with Australia which is subsidised. have to pay by weight for some of the other mail services, but there are other serviços that we have established between the Mother Country and the Colonies which are not subsidised, and it is with a view of having an extension. For instance, our direct lines of steamers to Australia are not assisted in any way.

Assistance rendered to them would be of benefit, not to the Mother Country, but to the Colonies; and there are certain mail matter that could be sent by them for which the others could pay, but it is with a view to extending the subsidies that the resolution was framed and I think that under that head we could come to a conclusion certainly by inserting the word extension.

The SECRETARY OF STATE: May I ask you, Mr. Seddon-I forgot to do so whether you contemplate in any new subsidy which might be given under your resolution, making any conditions as to freight?

Mr. SEDDON: Yes.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Mr. Chairman, this seems a subject which is Hitherto, I sup susceptible of many largo developments and consequences. pose, Governments as a rule have not found it advisable to subsidise any but mail steamers, except at the initial, stages of the trade with a new country. We have in Canada subsidised very few freight lines, only to be used for freight. We have had such lines between Canada and the West Indies, for instance, we contemplato opening a line with South Africa, from which we hope we will havo substantial results. At this moment, as you have just stated, we are in ncgotiation with a view to having a hotter trade and mail service between Great Britain and Canada, and I inay say that we have had already conferences with Sir Edmund Barton and Mr. Seddon, with a view to the Australian extending that line to the Pacific Ocean and to Colonios.

They All these proposals require no coinment from me. will commond themselves to the general view, but the new combination which you have referred to is a subject which is new, and perlaps dangerous to the trado of all nations except the country in which it has been initiated. I would speak on this subject with very great diffidence, and perhaps as tay colleagues are hore I would like them to give their viows upon the matter. With regard to the navigation laws, I think you are right in stating that 50 years ago they wore repealed, largely at the instance of the Colonies, and perhaps Canada was one of the chief motors in the new departure. The conditions have changed very much since that time. The Americans have extended their navigation laws, but not only to the coasting trade; but to a class which is not at all used for coasting trale, for instance, they have applied their law on the Pacific Ocean not only to the coast of the American continent, not only to the coast of the United States from California up to British Columbia, but they include Honolulu as part of the United States. They have not allowed the privileges to other shipping. They reserve that exclusively to themselves.

That shows, therefore, a sories of difficulties for all the competing nations, and practically some of our steamship lines have been oxcluded from the trade which they had before. A steamer from Australia to Canada cannot tako freight at Honolulu, because it is supposed by the interpretation of the American Navigation Laws to be part of the United States territory. On thing is certain

Sir EDMUND BARTON: They can take freight and carry it on to Canada,