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Mr. Seddon.] Has not our Commissioner of Customs told you that the in- formation he has given you is not reliable.

That

The Secretary of State.] "I do not see that they have quite said that; but we know in dealing with figures and statistics of trade that you never get any. thing which is absolutely accurate. You can only get suggested facts. appears to me, at all events, to be a very different question from the question of principle which we were discussing here the other day. It may be important to our manufacturers to get more information, but it does not bear in the least upon the question of principle. Is it desirable in order to show the preference which you feel, is it desirable that some advantage should be given at the present time to English goods, that is apart from the amount of trade altogether?

Mr. Seddon.] Suppose, Mr. Chamberlain, on inquiry, it was found that, being in a position to give cheaper freights owing to the subsidies given by other nations, that that was the cause of injury, and you have direct evidence upon that point, would not that help us in coming to some conclusion in respect of the reciprocity with reference to the mother country.

The Secretary of State.] Well, I should have thought not. I should have thought the question of any preference was in your hands now, and was quite

If independent of anything else. you could either then, or later, point out to us that in spite of the preference, English trade was being injured, and the trade between the Colonies and the mother country was being diminished owing to the artificial rates of freight being created by foreign countries, of course, that would be a matter for consideration.

Mr.Seddon.] Suppose we made a preference of 5 per cent., and the moment we made that to the mother country that foreign nations increased their subsidies, what benefit would it be to this country?

The Secretary of State.] Well, I should wait to see if they did; I do not think they would do it.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] What subsidies do you refer to ?

Mr. Reid.] Mail steamers with subsidies.

Mr. Seddon.] Sugar bounties.

The Secretary of State.] The bounty on sugar is a different thing. I do not think there is much in the mail subsidies. Our subsidies are very large and foreigners declare-

Mr. Seddon.] Your subsidies are given to a class of boats that do not take cargoes.

The foreign ones take more in one cargo than yours will take in four.

Sir John Forrest.] They will take it for nothing rather than not take it.

The Secretary of State.] That cannot go on very long.

Mr. Seddon.] £200,000 a year is a big subsidy for four boats.

Mr. Reid.] I quite see, Mr. Chamberlain, that if you appoint a Royal but Commission we are getting away from the point which was put to us,

As to the Royal Commission, still that seems to be the practical intention. if an inquiry was thought to be worthy of the occasion, there are depart- ments which could conduct such an inquiry, the Board of Trade; distinguished men who could conduct any possible inquiry of that kind.

The Secretary of State.] They are always conducting those inquiries. Information is coming to hand in different forms.

Mr. Reid.] I would throw out this suggestion just to see whether it would meet with general approval, whether we could not at least say this, that we will, having had the advantage of the discussions of this Conference, bring the matter before our colleagues in Australia and discuss it with them before We feel the matter one of so much arriving at any definite conclusion.

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importance, affecting the policy of each Colony, that we feel that we should have a consultation with our colleagues before we commit ourselves to a definite pledge or expression of opinion.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] I should have hoped, Mr. Reid, that something more tangible would have been come to.

Mr. Reid.] I thought that would have been better than this suggestion about the Commission.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] No. For my part I look upon the two things as having no point of connection at all; the question of principle laid down by Mr. Chamberlain a moment ago, and the question of a Commission, can come together or apart from each other, but if this Conference were to affirm the advisability I will not say advisability, but the great advantage, of this principle to give to the mother country a preference in colonial markets, without going any further, without committing anyone to it, seems to me a step very desirable at the present moment.

Mr. Reid.] Our position is so different from yours. The question has been before your colleagues. You have arrived at your policy and have submitted it to your Parliament.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] It does not imply that such a resolution would commit anybody to make it a part of the colonial policy of any particular colony, because such a resolution would have to be qualified by this statement whether it were impracticable under the existing local circumstances, but as a general abstract proposition to be worked up to, to be lived up to if possible, I think it would be worth considering.

Sir George Turner.] Are these abstract resolutions ever of any benefit to

anyone?

can

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] They are the mark goal to be worked Mr. Reid.] Unless it means something more than I

see, this particular resolution would mean, I think, we had better not pass resolutions.

to. up

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] If we cannot pass it unanimously I would not

pass

it

at all.

Sir George Turner.] Without knowing something behind it?

Mr. Kingston.] If it is an amiable platitude it is not worth much.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] It is a very living principle and one to be worked up to, and Canada is the one Colony which can be held up as an object

lesson.

any

Sir George Turner.] We are all anxiously watching it, to see if there is

benefit.

Mr. Reid.] I do not think we can take any other position than that the matter is really of so much importance and interest that we intend to consult our colleagues upon the subject on our return to the Colonies.

Sir George Turner.] It has never been discussed in any of our Colonies either among the ministers, or in parliament, or in public; they know nothing about it.

Mr. Reid.] Under those circumstances, do you not think that we could take the attitude that we could discuss it?

Sir George Turner.] We would rather have some definite information which we would be able hereafter to discuss.

Mr. Reid.] If anything is to come out of this proposal, a difference in the Colonial tariff, it must come entirely from our side.

Sir George Turner.] Yes, but supposing this inquiry, I do not want a large or an expensive commission, suppose a board were appointed, and that board

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