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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

PILTIC.O.8856

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

1 December 1896.]

Mr. LAMB, C.B., C.M.G.

Mr. Gillies-continued. Lordship raised was with reference to the Silver- town Company's cable of 533 lbs. of copper, I think, and 365 lbs. of gutta-percha; and Mr. Preece's estimate did not appear to agree; but as has since been pointed out Lord Kelvin recommended that the Silvertown Company should increase the copper and the gutta-percha a little and make it 552 lbs. of copper and 368 lbs. of gutta-percha, and I fancy that on that basis Mr. Precce would agree with Lord Kelvin, although Mr. Preece has not worked that out.

That is, he would agree with him if they both started with eight letters to a word, but Lord Kelvin's 12 words to a minute were five-letter words; and Mr. Precce's words were eight-letter words.

2494. Then you are satisfied that they practi- cally agree?—I think my feeling of discomfort at finding that there were two authorities who did not agree has now been removed.

Chairman.

2495. I may say I meant to put to you the revised core, not the original one ?--Then Mr. Preece's table does not give an exactly corre- sponding calculation.

Mr. Gillies.

2496. I think you said, I have taken you down as having said, that the maximum capacity of the cable, the core of which is 800 lbs. copper and 550 gutta-percha?-For the cable of 800 lbs. copper and 550 lbs. gutta-percha, the maximum capacity, or what Mr. Preece calls theoretical, is 107.

2497. Yes, I have got that; and then you say

that the maximum number of words that you could send through that cable in a year is, aa I understand you, 1,350,000 ?-That is the result of a calculation based on-

2498. On the number of hours, 15, as I understand you?-Yes, and also it takes into account the fact that press words are longer for the purpose of payment than ordinary words; therefore it brings in that disturbing element which you wish to exclude, and it also makes allowance for duplex for a short time every day.

2499. Then the reference to duplex is the use of the duplex if included in this number of words?--In my calculation I should like to explain that my calculation cannot be exact, and the calculation of no one with regard to prac- tical speed can be exact. The maximum speed, or theoretical speed, I believe, may be exact, but the practical speed depends on a great many considerations which different men bring into view.

Mr. Jones.

2500. Do you speak as a electrician?—No, I think it is only on the maximum, or theoretical, speed that you get an electrician to give a thoroughly trustworthy opinion.

Mr. Gillies.

2501. Then a cable of a certain core will be able to send through a certain distance so many words a minute ?-That is so; but may I mention

[Continued.

Mr. Gillies-continued. one thing which I omitted to mention yesterday. I have had to bear in mind that in July of next year an alteration will be made in the regulations of the International Convention, and it will be possi- ble to send to Australia a plain word of 15 letters for the price of one word, when now you can only send a word of ten letters; and the tendency, therefore, must be to increase the length of the words. Then I could, if you wished it, point out some differences between Atlantic traffic pure and simple, and miscellaneous traffic from the point of view of the waste in regard to service instructions and other unpaid words.

2502. I fancy that would be useful? The Atlantic cables are not subject to the conditions of the International Convention, and on direct traffic between two points you can abandon many of the things which are necessary in mis- cellaneous traffic. We, ourselves, in England have an illustration of the same thing in our Stock Exchange traffic. In the messages that are sent direct from the Stock Exchange in London to the Stock Exchange, for example, in Glasgow, many service instructions and unpaid words are omitted because the traffic is direct and not miscellaneous; it is not mixed with any other traffic; but when you have a traffic which is mixed then you have to introduce service indications to distinguish one class of traffic from another, and my impression is that those indications would be necessary on traffic between England and Australia. Under the International Telegraph Convention, you have to indicate by either one letter or two, as the case may be, whether a tele- gram is a Government telegram, whether it is a service message sent on behalf of the public (there are service messages which are paid for by the public), or whether there is to be an acknowledgment of receipt; and there are several other indications which I could mention. There are no less than seven indications which are used in the International service to let the office of destination know what class of telegram it is. Then you have to indicate the office of origin. In the Atlantic traffic you can do that by an abbreviation, as we in our internal traffic do; but when you are dealing with miscellaneous traffic, going through several countries, you cannot resort to abbreviation, because the various States could never agree on what the abbreviation should be, and you must state your office of origin in full. There are cases where you are obliged to state the territorial subdivision in which this office of origin is placed, in order to distinguish it from another office of the same name. Then you give the number of your telegram; then you give the number of words paid for, and that is divided into two or three branches in many telegrams the number of words paid for does not agree with the num- ber of words sent: if in code a word exceed. eleven letters, you have to indicate that that is one word, so that the clerk writing it out at the other end may know that it is only one, but you have to indicate also by a fraction that an- other word is paid for. That is for the purposes of account; otherwise the intermediate adminis trations would not know what you had got for

1 December 1896.]

Mr. LAMB, C.B., C.M.G.

Mr. Gillies-continued.

the message.

Then you have to indicate in mixed telegrams how many words are in clear language, and how many in code language.

2503. That is for paying purposes?-That is to enable the various administrations concerned to keep their accounts accurately for one thing, and also to help the clerks at the various trans- mitting points and at the office of destination to write the message correctly. For instance, to go back to the difference between the number of words paid for and the actual number of words, you indicate the number of words paid for so as to suit the accounts, you would indicate in some cases a larger number than appeared in the message, and then questions would arise as to whether the man at the transmitting point or at the office of destination had got the correct number of words, and so you must send in the form of a fraction the actual number of words and the paid number of words.

if

2504. What I wanted to get was this :-I thought that you said previously the maximum number of words showing the capacity of the cable was, 1,350,000 in the year, given 15 hours work in a day? That is my estimate of its practical capacity.

2505. That it is able to send them?—Yes. There are other indications which I can give you. I was merely endeavouring to show that a state of affairs which Vou inay

find on Π direct service like the Atlantic may not be

[Continued.

Mr. Gillies-continued. applicable, and indeed is not applicable to a miscellaneous service like that between this country and Australasia.

Mr. Murray.

2506. How far would all those modifications apply to a Pacific cable?—I think every one of these things would have to be sent on a Pacific cable.

Mr. Jones.

2507. If they do not apply to the Atlantic cables now, why should they apply to the Pacific? Because the Australasian colonies are parties to the International convention. It is convenient to them that they should be, and they make a practice of adhering to the regula- tions of the convention, and the same is the case at this end. And for the purposes of that traffic even a company which did not adhere to the convention would have to follow the regula- tions as an intermediate administration.

Mr. Murray.

2508. Do you mean that the Atlantic com- panies for instance, would have to transmit all those indications in the case of a message originating in Australasia ?—I think so.

2509. And get nothing for them ?—Yes, and in one sense get nothing for them.

The Witness withdrew.

Mr. II. BUXTON FORMAN, Assistant Secretary and Controller of Packet Services of the General Post Office, called in; and Examined.

Chairman.

?

2510. HAs the Government ever given sub- sidies to steamship companies in order to reduce the cost of oceanic passages - Within the memory of existing people certainly not; I should say not in the whole of the steam era, if ever; and I should think, never. It would be almost contrary to the nature of things for them to do so, because in all our ocean contracts the Post- master-General has the entire right to the postage, and he settles with the ocean-carrying companies either upon the basis of a subsidy or else by payment according to the weight of the different articles carried. Speaking from recol- lection of the time when I have been in charge of this work more or less myself, I should say that the reverse process has taken place; that as the rates for postage, in which the companies had no concern, lave fallen, as they have throughout the Postal Union since the Postal Union régime was started in 1874, the payments to the com- panies have also fallen. I will not say that in all cases post hoc is propter hoc, but in many cases it is positively; in many cases where the sca rate has altered the rate payable to the packet companies has pro tanto altered.

Chairman - continued.

2511. Is it not a fact that if you did not pay large subsidies to various steamship companies, letters could not be carried as cheaply as they are? No, I do not think that is the fact.

2512. I mean they might arrive there in the course of time, but they would not arrive with the facility or regularity that you require from a Post? Then you come to the question, what is the meaning of subsidies. I think that is the kernel of the present question. The meaning of subsidies I should take to be this. They follow always the lines of the great traffic. There are only one or two instances in which subsidies may be called enabling. There is for instance the case of the slave trade service, where there is a postage of about 100. a year applicable to a subsidy of 9,0007, a year; and I think that is the only one I could recall at the present moment ; but that until within the last few years was borne on the Slave Trade Vote; that really was a Vote of Parliament for the purpose of suppressing the slave trade, and was borne upon the Foreign Office estimates; but with the exception of that the letters follow the great commercial traffic as it is in the nature of letters to do in passing from

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