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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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TENTH DAY.

TUESDAY, 1ST DECEMBER 1896.

PRESENT:

THE RIGHT HONOURABLE THE EARL OF SELBORNE, CHAIRMAN, Presiding.

The Hon. Sir DONALD SMITH, G.C.M.G. The Hon. Sir SAUL SAMUEL, K.C.M.G., C.B. The Hon. D. GILLIES.

The Hon. A. G. JONES, P.C. Mr. G. H. MURRAY, C.B.

Mr. W. H. MERCER, Secretary.

Mr. JOHN CAMERON LAMB, C.B., C.M.G., Third Secretary of the Post Office, re-called; and further Examined.

Mr. Gillies. 2450-2457. I wOULD lik, Mr. Lamb, to bring you back to what of course is a very serious ques- tion for consideration, and that is the proposed capacity of the cable for carrying purposes. We have it in evidence from several people that the cable of the small carrying capacity that is mentioned, 650 lbs. of copper and 400 lbs. of gutta percha, to be laid from I think that Vancouver to Fanning Island is the heaviest cable that you have men- tioned, is it not?-The cable that I had in view yesterday was Mr. Preece's model cable of 800 lbs. copper and 550 lbs. gutta percha to the knot, I believe there is some difference of opinion among engineers as to whether so heavy a cable could be lifted and repaired, but I have assumed that such a cable could be repaired.

2458. Eight hundred pounds ?-Eight hundred pounds copper and 550 lbs. gutta percha to the

knot.

2459. And even with that weight you have given evidence that a little more than two words a minute would be sent ?-I think I must not I thought that have made myself understood. with duplex for the short period during which duplex could be--

2460. Oh well, but we are speaking about the simplex first ?-Well then as to simplex, what I wished to convey was this: Mr. Preece has estimated the theoretical speed of such a cable, on the basis of eight letters to a word, at 107 words a minute, and the practical speed of working--

2461. That is the duplex - No, simplex still.

2462. Simplex 10 words?-107 a minute as the theoretical speed of working at eight letters a word.

2463. Eight letters a word ?—Yes, and the practical speed of working (that is, making allowance for time lost by the clerks and cor- rections' and errors and service messages and

Mr. Gillies-continued.

Well, service instructions) the practical speed of work- ing for paid traffic he estimated at 4·82. then, what I desired to point out yesterday was this that when Mr. Preece made this estimate he did it entirely from observation of the number of letters and words that passed over a cable, but he did not take a financial view; he did not ask whether there was any difference in the payment for a Press message and the pay- ment for a Government message as compared with an ordinary message.

2464. You mean he calculated every message at 4s. 9d, a word?—He had not any particular rate in view, but he had it in view that every word was paid for at the same rate.

2465. At what rate ?-That did not enter into his calculation, sir: his calculation was not a calculation of revenue but of speed, and in speed he assumed that every paid word would be paid for at the same rate, and as an engineer or elec- trician that was all that he could take into account.

2466. Would you explain how that affects the question of the number of payable words that would be sent through if you were not assuming the amount that is paid, whether they paid 1. or whether they paid 45. 9d., the number of words that would go through would be all the Bame?-Well, you and Mr. Preece are reckoning every word as a paid word, and, therefore, are on common ground so far. But at this point you have to say to yourself, some of these words are paid for at only a quarter rate and some at only a half rate, and, therefore, if you want to know what the revenue of your cable is going to be, what your cable can produce in revenue, you may have to say to yourself, 1 must make an allowance for the fact that four press words go as one and two Government words go as one.

2467. What I was attempting to get at first, before going to the financial part, was to ascer-

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Mr. LAMB. C.B., C.M.G.

Mr. Gillies-continued. tain exactly the capacity of the cable for carrying so many words ?-Well, I think you may take it that Mr. Preece has stated the capacity when he has given the figure at 482, but that has nothing to do with finance. That is not at the paying

word rate.

2468. It is the paying word? It is the paying words, but it is without making any distinction between the payment for one word and another.

2469. Then, of course, to get the revenue that the cable could earn we would require to take the proportion of messages going from the public, for which they would pay 4s. 9d. a word, and then consider the proportion which the Government would pay at 3s. 7d. a word, and the proportion which the Press would pay at the

lower rate-That is so.

2470. In working out the number of payable words that would go through, do you arrive at the same conclusion as Mr. Preece?—I see no

reason to differ from Mr. Preece on that figure

of 4.82.

2471. That is for his core ?—Yes. 2472. Eight hundred pounds copper and 550 lbs. gutta-percha?-Eight hundred pounde copper and 550 lbs. gutta-perchn.

2473. Did you make any estimate for a core of 650 lbs. of copper and 400 lbs of gutta-percha? -I accept Mr. Preece's estimate for that also.

2474. And that is what?-Theoretical, 7·85; practical, 3.5.

2475. We have had evidence here to the effect

that for the 650 lbs. and 400 lbs. of guttn-percha, the cable would only have a capacity, under those circumstances, of two words in a minute, or a very small percentage, perhaps, over that? -I think that estimate was given with reference to such considerations as I mentioned a few minutes ago; it was given with reference to the question of effective paying words. That is, in that estimate, I think, it was assumed that a press word was equal to four other words.

2476. Well, it did not say so, and it did not convey it. It was repeated several times during the evidence?—I speak subject to correction; but I rather understood that the object of one of the Chairman's questions was to bring

that out.

2477. I confess I have not understood that from the whole of the evidence. On that point, what is the capacity of this proposed scale? First, the one that you have mentioned, that your department thinks good, viz., 800 lbs. copper and 550 lbs. gutta-percha. With such a cable laid down as that, what is the capacity of the cable for carrying words on the most difficult point, viz., from Vancouver to Fanning Island: how many words a minute?-Well, the theo- retical capacity is 10-7.

2478. And the practical ?—4-82.

Chairman,

2479. Simplex ?- Simplex.

Mr. Gillies.

2480. And then the 650 lbs. of copper and 400 of gutta-percba ?-The theoretical is 7·85, and the practical is 3.5.

[Continued.

Mr. Gillies-continued. 2481. May I ask you, do you think that that is so certain, from your knowledge of every-day work, that somebody could not with correctness be a witness here, and make it considerably different?—I do not think a trustworthy witness could make it appreciably different.

2482. I mean any error. I do not mean that he would tell us anything that he did not be- lieve in.

I mean, is the difficulty of arriving at this conclusion great, or is it perfectly plain sailing? I believe that it is plain sailing.

2483. And that really any member of the Committee could have no fear whatever in being able to quote that as an authoritative conclusion? -I think not; no difficulty,

Chairman.

2484. I should like to ask a question there. You say that 800 lbs. copper and 550 gutta- percha gives a theoretical speed of 10-7 words a minute? Yes.

2485. Can you explain how Lord Kelvin most distinctly gave totally different figures for 12 words a minute, 552 lbs. of copper and 368 lbs, of gutta-percha; how can you explain that dis crepancy?-Lord Kelvin based his calculation on five letters to a word.

2486. And you base yours on-2-Mr. Preece bases his on eight letters to a word.

2487-8. Yes. Then let me see. Mr. Preece gives practically 80 lettere a minute, and Lord Kelvin gives 60 letters a minute ?-For the type of cable which I understand your Lordship men- tions (533 lbs. of copper and 365 lbs. of gutta- percha) Mr. l'reece gives 6-7 as the speed, and Lord Kelvin, I understand, gives 12. Five times 12 are 60, and eight times 67, 536, is it not. Yes, there is a difference; I am afraid I cannot explain it; it is a case of doctors differing.

2489. But there is a material difference?— There is a difference, yes. I am sorry that I am not Mr. Preece; I daresay Mr. Preece could I think I may say that it is Mr. explain it. Preece who first formulated the law on which these calculations are made, and this law is very generally accepted now, and therefore, as n colleague of Mr. Preece, I feel justified in accepting his figures on such a subject. I have no hesitation in saying that Mr. Preece is an authority; not any.

Mr. Gillies.

2490. I suppose Lord Kelvin is an authority? -Of course I would not suggest for a moment

that he is not.

2491-2. I think there was some difference be- tween the estimate of Lord Kelvin and Mr. Preece as to the capacity of a particular cable? -Since my last answer was given the thing has been explained. Lord Kelvin gave his estimate for a cable with more copper and more gutta- percha than the original Silvertown, which was in Mr. Preece's table, so I fancy they are agreed. I have not worked it out, but I think it will be found that they are in practical agreement

2493. Your estimate is 800 lbs, of

copper and 550 lbs. gutta-percha ?—The question which his

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