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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

1 December 1896.]

Chairman-continued.

156

Mr. FORMAN.

one country to another. They are mostly about commerce, and they follow the great commerce- the commerce for the purposes of freight and The subsidy simply represents in passengers. the first place the keeping of a regular time- table, whether freight and passengers suffice to support a regular service or not.

2513. A time table for the post? Certainly, yes; and that involves the keeping of a time-table for all purposes. The Postmaster-General makes his contract that the work shall be done at a certain speed, that the packets shall start on fixed days at regular intervals, and that they shall arrive with adequate regularity not quite in the same rigid degree, but as far as arrival with equal regularity is compatible with progress in sca speed. If you require absolute regularity in arrival as well as departure, that would, of course, at once paralyse progress at sea-progress in the average speed at sea, and therefore allowances are made for that; but the real thing that is paid for is moderate despatch and absolute punctuality in departure.

Mr. Gillies.

2514. Do you not understand with what object that has been done?-With what object?

2515. What is the object of the punctuality; it is not for the passengers, is it?-Oh, no.

2516. What is it for ?-In order that we may know (there are various points on shore from which letters come) in order that we may know how to fit our inland services to our outland services, and how our colleagues abroad may despatch their mails to come to this coun- try, and go through this country, and pass to other countries beyond the sea. If that were not known and fixed according to a regu lar time-table, the mails might be heaped up anywhere, waiting for the next ship.

2517. Is it not a fact that an effort has been made from time to time in making contracts with steamers that they should reduce the period or make the period as low as they possibly can in time in going, say, from here to Australia ?— Certainly.

2518. Well, is that for the sake of the few days passengers being able to arrive a earlier, or is it for the sake of the mails?-For the sake of the mails, so far as the Postmaster- General's negotiations are concerned; but it has nothing to say to the cheapness of the mails-it has nothing to say to the cheapness of the

rates.

Mr. Gillies--continued.

[Continued.

2519. You mean the cost on each letter ?— The payment by the public on each letter.

Sir Saul Samuel.

2520. I would like to ask you a question. Take the case of the Peninsular and Oriental Company and the Orient Company, who are paid a subsidy by the Imperial Government and the colonies; is not that for a special service?--In what way a special service?

2321. Why, a special service for the convey- ance of mails. If you did not give that subsidy the mails would not be conveyed in the same way as they are now?-No, if we did not give that subsidy the chances are that the fastest ships would be laid up in the slack

season.

Mr. Jones.

2522. The Post Office subsidises certain lines of steamers, do they not, for carrying the mails?

Certainly.

2523. There is the Peninsular and Oriental, and the West India, and other lines ?—Yes.

2524. Well, that is an annual subsidy ?—Yes, in those cases it is an annual subsidy.

2525-26. The mails to the United States are not subsidised, they are paid for by the bulk they occupy? It is practically an indirect subsidy; they are paid for by weight.

2527. Supposing these other lines that are carrying the mails were carrying them by weight it would not amount to anything like the subsidy they now get, probably ?-It depends entirely on the rate they tender to carry at.

2528. Are there not other steamship lines running to these points to which these steamers are subsidised-Australia the Peninsular and Oriental boats, and the West India line; are there not other steamers running there con- stantly? Well, I would not say constantly but there are other steamers running.

2529. Is not this subsidy that the Government gives to these boats for that service practically

a

discrimination against the other line of steamers to that extent?--No, I should say not, because it is done by open tender.

2530. Quite so 7-They can all tender to put themselves under a regular time-table, instead of going when they have got freight and passengers sufficient.

2531. But, practically, it amounts to that, that they have that advantage of a Government subsidy over private lines?-Oh, certainly, a Government subsidy is an advantage.

The Witness withdrew.

Mr. J. H. CARSON, called in; and Examined.

Chairman.

2532. I THINK you are the Manager of the Anglo-American Cable Company?—Yes.

2533. Would you tell the Committee what the connection between the Anglo-American Cable Company is with the American land lines ?-We have a connection with the Western Union

Chairman-continued. Telegraph Company which dates from 1854 or 1855, from the time the first Atlantic cable was proposed, and we have continued that up to the present time. The Western Union Telegraph Company is our great collector in the United States. We have also connection with the Great

1 December 1896.]

157

Mr. CARSON.

Chairman-continued. North-Western Telegraph Company in Canada, for British territory, and with the Dominion Telegraph Company in Canada.

2534. If a telegram was handed to you in London here unrouted for Vancouver, how would it go?-We should send it to Montreal. First of all, it would go to Newfoundland over our own cables, then to North Sydney, Cape Breton, then vid Sackville, New Brunswick to Montreal, all the time on British territory, and at Montreal we should band it over

to the Canadian Pacific Telegraph Company to go further West.

2535. That is, that the Western Union lines in that part are all on British territory ?—All on British territory.

was

2536. And suppose a routed telegram handed in to the Western Union to come, we will say, by the Commercial Cable Company, weuld it do so?-No, the Western Union does not admit the right of the sender to via, nor does any other telegraph company in the United States.

2537. Does not admit--?-Does not admit

the right of the sender to viâ his message by any particular cable.

2538. That is quite admitted in the United States, that the sender has no right to choose his route-Not only in the United States but in America generally in Canada just the same as in the United States. All the telegraphs there are in private companies' hands; the land telegraph companies bave alliances with certain cable companies, and naturally, through those alliances, the cable companies claim all mes- sages that these land telegraph companies may collect.

For instance, the Western Union Coni- pany for the whole of the United States has an agreement with the Anglo-American Telegraph Company, the Direct United States Cable Com- pany, and the American Telegraph and Cable Company (now lensed to the Western Union Telegraph Company) by which all messages which come into their hands must go to those cable companies. So also in the United States, the Postal Telegraph Company, which is the great opponent of the Western Union Telegraph Company, has an exclusive agreement with Commercial Cable Company. The Commercial Cable Company being an American company and a part of the Postal Telegraph Company brings their messages across to England. The Canadian Pacific in Canada is allied to the Com- mercial Cable Company. The land companies ally themselves with certain cable companies. Any messages those land companies collect must come to the cable companies with whom they are in alliance.

2539. You mean that if a sender in Vancouver handing in a telegram to the Canadian Paritic Telegraph Company was to route it across the Atlantic, rid your cable, that would be waste ink --Quite waste ink. Ife could not do so, The Company would not accept it. They would say, "We have a connection with the United

Kingdom, and we shall send it that way." 2540. A different system prevails on this

Chairman-continued.

[Continued.

Government

side of the water? These are telegraphs.

2541. But suppose anybody was to hand in to one of your offices a cable routed when it gets to the States to go by a different route to the Western Union, would you do it ?—Not without the permission of the Western Union Company,

2542. And you would not be likely to get it? Well, they would be reasonable. They have been reasonable in the matter of Canada; they have allowed us to hand messages over to the Canadian Pacific Telegraph Company, which is an opponent of the Western Union Telegraph Company, and which is reckoned an opponent of the Great North Western and of the old Dominion Telegraph Company.

2543. Then if a cable was routed to Vancouver by the Canadian Pacific, you would be able to curry out the instructions?-We should do so. The Western Union Company can get to Van- couver via Chicago. It crosses the Canadian frontier at Seattle, Washington Territory. It is a short distance only from Vancouver, so that a message might go through the United States to Vancouver nearly all the way by the Western Union Telegraph Company; but so that our messages may not go on to foreign territory, we have an arrangement by which we can hand the messages over at Montreal to the Canadian Pacific Telegraph Company to go farther west, because the older companies, the Great North Western and the Dominion Telegraph Company, have no wires to Vancouver.

Mr. Jones.

2544. Why do you not hand over at Canso, where your cable landa -Our cables do not land at Canso; our cables land at Hearts Content in Newfoundland.

2545. It crosses at Newfoundland ?—It crosses Newfoundland and goes to North Sydney, Cape Breton, thence to Montreal or New York vid St. John, New Brunswick.

2546. No. But what I meant to say was this: Ilave not the Canadian Pacific connections as far as Canso or Cape Breton ?-1 believe the Cana- dian Pacific have connections straight through to Halifax.

2547-8. But that is in another direction. They have connections to Halifax, I know; but what I mean to say is, could you not hand over your messages to the Canadian Pacific Railway at Cape Breton instead of passing them over the Western Union at all ?—Yes, with the permission of the Western Union Company.

Sir Donald Smith,

2549. Do you hand over your messages to the Western Union at the landing place in Nova Scotia? We hand them

at North Sydney, Cape Breton, to the Western Union Telegraph Company.

over

2550. And by the Western Union Telegraph Company they are handed over to the Canadian Pacific Railway at Montreal?-Yes, you may say so; but, of course, not by the hand really of the Western Union Telegraph Company.

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