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10 December 1918.]

something of that kind.

WHALING COMMITTEE:

Dr. SIDNEY F. HARNER, M.A., V.R.8.

Right whales are caught off the coast of South Africa, and they were formerly very abundant, evidently, in Kerguelen, so that it seems to me quite possible.

100. So that the whales are at some periods of the year off the South Shetlands and South Georgia, and at other periods are possibly off the coast of Africa?--I should think it is extremely probable, both with regard to them and the Humpback more particularly.

101. (Mr. Darnley.) Have you seen the report from the Commander of H.M.S. Dwarf dated December 1012, about the migration of Humpbacks and Sperm whales in South Afrios P-No.

,

102. May I read it please: The whales which are found on the West Coat are: (1) Sperm whales: (2) Black Humpbacked whales; (3) Blue whales. Of these, by far the greatest number are the Hump- backed whales, and these come up from the South Polar seas on their way to the Bay of Biafra, where they breed each year. They are on their northward "run from May till the end of July, and on their return journey from the middle of August until the middle of November. They usually follow the line of the coast, and do not go more than about 12 miles out." We have heard from other sources of this migration, and it seems well established as far as the West African part of it is concerned, but whether they really come from the South Polar seas, or whether they come from the South Georgian seas, are matters which seem to be open to doubt?--I am very much interested to hear that report; it is a more definite statement than anything I have come sorces.

103. I am sorry that we sent you no copy; it was printed by the Foreign Office and doubtless we had insufficient spare prints. I should like to see a copy very much.

104. I read all that there was about the migration of Humpbacks, but there is this about Sperm whales: The Sperm whales are found from April until August between Cape St. Mary and Eapiegle Bay, about 40 miles out from the const. Very much does "not appear to be known, however, of their exact Can you throw any "Barons or destination." light on the question whether the West African Hump- backs are likely to be identical with the South Georgiau Humpbacks? I am afraid I can throw no definite light on that question.

105. Anyhow. with the Greenland whale it seems to be as well established a migration as there in ?--Yes, if that statement is accurate.

106. If we had Mr. Irvin here he could tell us about it; his Company works in West Africa and in South Georgia, and the seasons fit in?-That is very interesting.

(Chairman.) The statement there is that they come to breed.

(Mr. Darnley,) Yes, in the Bay of Binfra.

(Witness.) Does that mean they produce their young there He does not explain; he is not a scientific man as far as I know. It is simply the captain's report.

107. (Chairman.) I should like to interpolate a question there, because it is a point we were discussing before, whether we do know anything about any definite breeding period; that is to say, the period of the year at which whales are born?-I have only very imperfect knowledge on that subject; but, so far as I have been able to ascertain, in some species there is no definite period; if you were to examine a large number of specimens of pregnant females at one particular time, you would find they contained futuses of all sorts of different ages.

108. (Mr. Darnley.) Does not the report from South Georgia, which has been circulated, throw some light on the subject? It is in the first paragraph of Mr. Wilson's report. Ithink it was Annexe No. 4 or 5 to our memo. randum?—It is numbered 6 in the copy sent to me.

109. The first paragraph of that gives some information?-Yes, he says that in October or Novem- ber the fœtus is usually in its first stages of development.

• No. 18, in Miscellaneous, No. 278.

+ No. 12 in Miscellanecus, No. 278.

No. 23 in Mlecellaneous, No. 278.

[Continued.

110. That, of course, in spring there P-Yes.

111. (Chairman) If a statement like that can be made, it rather suggests that the theory, if I may call it so, that the period of gestation goes into a number of year can hardly be upheld -I think someone has suggested that a female whale may breed every other year. That would get over the difficulty.

112. It has been suggested, has it not, that the female whale is actually pregnant for years, that is to say, that the period of gestation lasts for one or more years-I did not know that it was suggested that it would go for years, but it has been suggested, I feel cer- tain, that it might be pregnant for more than 12 months.

113. That might be only for 14 months or some. thing of that kind? Yes.

114. I think the last point I want to ask you about is a point blank question to begin with: Can you suggest a satisfactory method of protection for whales or alternative methods? I mean from the scientific point of view: we know the administrative difficulties would have to be combated if possible P-I feel I would rather not commit myself very definitely on that subject, because I really have not got the necessary in- I hope that when this mission of formation. Major Barrett-Hamilton's returns he will be able to tell us a little more about it. I think it would be very desirable to know what he had to say on the subject.

115. (Mr. Lamb.) I suppose your view is that until more is known about the habits of the whales it is almost impossible to say what form of protection is the best ?--Yes, that is rather what I feel.

116. (Chairman.) If I might put the point to you, the British Museum authorities began by pressing for protection for whales, and we look rather as if we were to move in a vicious circle. We do not know enough about the nature of the methods of protection to apply, and on the other hand we are told, and there is a good deal of evidence for it, that the rate of destruction is such that the matter is extremely urgent. If you are to start on an investigation, and to get the information we have not got, you will find that there are no whales to investigate on your own hypothesis really -Yes, we have been saying, at any rate to ourselves, for some time past, that we completely realise the urgency of the question, and we have foreseen that we might be asked by the Colonial Office what remedies we should suggest. That has made us extremely anxious to get observations made of the kind that Major Barrett- Hamilton is carrying out now, in order to be able to be in a position to give some satisfactory answer which at present I do not think we are able to do. But although I feel quite uncertain about what the right course to adopt is, it seemed to me, from reading this memoran. dum circulated by Mr. Durnley, that one or two of the ideas suggested were quite promising and might possi bly be tried; for instance, the treatment of the whole carcase of the whale would limit the destruction to some extent. If that is made absolutely necessary as it is proposed to make it, that would prevent these whalers from killing a larger number of specimens than they could deal with.

117. (Mr. Darnley.) May I suy that is not our ex- perience; they catch all they can and they provide Occasionally plant generally sufficient to utilise it.

the whole carcase condition is not fully complied with. -Would you not attach any importance to the regula- tion that they should utilise the whole carcase!

118. Yes, but from the point of view of utilising to the fullest extent the whales actually killed, not of re- ducing the numbers killed.-I see.

119. (Afr. Lamb.) You say, however, that in your view the question of protection was one of great urgency. Have the British Museum any definite information to show that the amount of whaling that is going on in the Southern Hemisphere is seriously depleting the number of whales, or does the case proceed solely on the analogy of what has happened in the Northern Hemisphere? In reading your memorandum it appeare to me rather that the case that is made there is: The

whales have seriously diminished in number in the Northern Hemisphere, and therefore the same thing "must happen in the Southern Hemisphere "?—I might perhaps quote from page 6 of my memorandum an

10 December 1913]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Dr. SIDNEY F. HAKMER, M.A., F.R.,

extract from a letter of Mr. Murphy, who is on the staff of the Brooklyn Museum in New York; he says: One of the Norwegian secretaries of the Compania Argentina de Pesca has computed that within six years from December 1912 whaling will be unprofit able in South Georgia if the present carnage con- "tinues." That is the opinion of a person who has had practical experience of whaling on the spot.

120. You could not point to any other definite in- formation on the subject -I can also quote from page 5 of my memorandum, where there is a reference to an Annual Report of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, pointing out that the number of whales captured annually in southern waters increased from 183 in 1906 to 12,635 in 1911. The report goes on to say that the whaling industry in 1912 was not every- where so successful as had been anticipated. "though pursued with considerable vigour and in new areas." I understand that whales are atill very abundant in South Georgia. Perlaps there has been hardly time to show any very marked diminution in their numbers. Probably the statistics that the Colonial Office possess would give a much more definite answer to that ques tion than I am in a position to do.

121, (Mr. Daruley.) There has been a slight decrease in South Georgia which may be the turning of the tide, but until we get next year's figures we cannot say. It may be an accidental variation; it is a very small one, In the South Shetlands no decrease is noticeable yet. -But if you look at the statistics for the Greenland whale fishery and the Sperm whale fishery you find the decrease lid not come all in a moment; there were u certain number of years, and a good many years really, in which whaling was very profitable, but when they got beyond a certain point it fell off rapidly.

122. (Mr. Lamb.) I do not know whether it may not be that the enditions in the Southern Hemisphere are different from the Northern; that is to say, it has been suggested that there are areas in the Southern Hemisphere where the whales cannot be pursued, which might possibly make the conditions very materially different from what they were in the Northern Hemi- sphere! That is possible.

123. But you have no definite information on that point P-No definite information.

124. (Mr. Darsley.) I understand that in the Antarctic the area inside the pack-ice is practically a protected area; is there any such area in the Arctic or is that peculiar to the Antarctic?-1 do not see why the conditions should be different in the two Polar regions, but that is possibly due to my ignora.ice of the matter. I should have thought it was possible that if it was true of the Antarctic waters it would have been more likely to be true of the North Pole in connection with the Greenland whale, which is so pre-eminently an ice-living animal, and yet we have no particular reason to suppose it is so.

125. (Chairman.) If you have anything more you would like to say to us will you please make your statement in any way that is convenient to you?--I would like to comment on the paragraph headed" Close Time" in this memorandum of the Colonial Office, which concludes by saying: “Accordingly it seems His Majesty's Government would not favour a provision And that follows on an argu- "for a close season."

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ment showing that you cannot have a simultaneous close time which is any good for different localities; but it occurred to me on reading that paragraph that it might be possible to have different close times for the different localities and still do some good in the matter.

126. (Mr. Darnley.) That is my remark, which is purely provisional, and made because I thought we might get terribly cheated with regard to any international Dar- gaining with regard to close time. In some places they could establish quite a long close time without inter- fering with the fishing at all, whereas in other places if they established a close time at any time it would seriously affect the industry-South Georgia, for in-

(The Witness

[Continued.

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stance, about five-sixths being caught in the summer and one-sixth in the winter. If we had a close time in winter there it would only knock off one-sixth ?— It occurred to me that you might treat the different localities in different ways, for instance, if you wanted to reduce the whaling in South Georgia. I hoped that the question of close time would be fully discussed, and these were only preliminary remarks of mine.

One

127. (Chairman.) The difficulty we all have in our minds is what is to be the basis of a close time! might have a different close time for different seasons if one could to begin with make up one's mind what was to be the guiding principle on which you would fix your close time, and on that we are rather seeking light, and we do not quite know what line to take. Supposing a close time was adopted, we do not know if there is any particular period when the majority of female whales are pregnant, or in an advanced state of pregnancy, just about to calve, or if there are any other conditions which make a particular period at a certain place a desirable close season ?-That seems to me a question on which it is specially desirable to get the opinion of people who have practical knowledge of the subject, and therefore I feel it will be of great importance to hear what Major Barrett-Hamilton has to Bay; and, if I might make a further suggestion, it might be worth the while of this Committee to ask Mr. D. G. Lillie whether he could give them any facts of importance. He was on the Terra Nora expedition, und spent a good deal of the time, when the others were in the Far South, in New Zealand, at the whaling stations there. I believe he has a considerable amount of information about the whaling that is taking place in New Zealand at the present time. Then there is a paragraph marked "Research" in this memorandum. It seems to me it is going to be a long time before we have got to the bottom of this whaling question, and if any regulations were going to be made restricting the number of vessels that might take part in the industry, it might be worth while to make an excep- tion in favour of vessels engaged in any sort of re- search work.

128. That, of course, would be made a condition? -I thought it might perhaps be of interest to the Committee if I brought down a copy of a Schedule which has been prepared at the British Museum. That (handing a printed Schedule to the Chairman) was the Bort of thing we thought of to get together the kind of information we wanted. It was prepared for Major Barrett-Hamilton to take down to the south with him, and he was to try to distribute those to some of the whaling captains, and get correct information with regard to the kinds of whale killed, their length, and so on, from which conclusions could afterwards be drawn. 129. If research were being undertaken this would be very useful, but the proposal here is international research, is it not, and that would be a question on which we could consult with you if anything of the kind were taken up?—Yes.

130. Have you any other points you would like to put before us ?--No, excepting this one, that I feel that it is a question which requires research, and re- search on a large scale, on the spot on which you are examining, not merely the whales directly, but also the other conditions, the distribution of food, and so on.

131. The environment ?-The environment gener- ally, and even although it may be very desirable and important to apply remedies as soon as possible, they would probably, in the first instance, be tentative, and the fact that it is necessary to act promptly. I think, ought not to be a reason for not undertaking these re- searches, which, I think, will ultimately be necessary to Bolve some of these questions. I should myself lay very great stress on the importance of conducting proper investigations in South Georgia, or the South Shetlands, or somewhere of that kind, and finding out ne much as possible about the conditions under which these whales are living and are being hunted. withdrew.)

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WHALING COMMITTEE :