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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

11

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

tc.O. 885

23 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

Mr. BAKER.

Mr. HOLT.

Mr. LAMB.

SECOND DAY.

Friday, 23rd January 1914.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

MR. MAURICE (Chairman).

Mr. LESLIE. MT. VERNON.

Mr. WILLIAMs (Secretary),

Mr. STANLEY T. BURFIELD, B.A, called and examined.

132. (Chairman.) Our secretary has given you some heads on which we want evidence, and I think you have agreed to give evidence on those heads P-Yes. I have made a note of the main points, and if these would be of any use I shall be glad to hand them in (handing in the notes).

133. I think these will be very useful. With regard to the first question: Whether there is evidence of the need of protection, the first thing you refer to is the killing of gravid females !-Yee.

134. Are you suggesting that regulations should be introduced to prevent the killing of gravid females? --I do not think it would be possible, because you cannot tell a gravid female in the water, and I think it would be very awkward, because the gravid female gives the best yield of oil, which the whalers naturally like to have. I think it would be impossible to prevent the taking of gravid females. I also think it would be quite impossible to detect a female as gravid in the Sometimes one cannot do it when they are on water. land, after they have been pulled out, until they have

been out.

135. That is when they are in the early stage of pregnancy ?-Yes.

136. So that really, when mentioning the killing of gravid females as evidence of the need of protection, you are just indicating one incident of the destruction more than that?-Yes, the that is going on-not apparent need of something being done.

137. Your next head is" Argument from the mini- mum catch per boat"?-That is an argument which seems rather weak, but it was given to me by Captain Bruun, the manager of the Blacksod Station, where I stayed. His argument, from what I could make of it, was that given a whaling boat in a definite area of sea with a definite number of whales in that area, only a percentage of that number is seen, chased, and caught, and as the number in that area becomes less, due perhaps to the killing off or some other reason, so the percentage of the number which is actually caught would fall.

138. You mean the percentage of the total number present? The total number in that area, yes; and, as for a northern station, a certain fairly high minimum, about 30 whales per boat is necessary to make the station pay, his argument was that that minimum would be reached before the whales could be exterminated and the station would shut down automatically.

139. That is an argument really against the need for protection P-Yes; he gave it to me as against the need for protection.

140. That is a question we have had before us already--that, to speak, a natural form of protection will arise because the fishing will not be worth while P -Yes; but it does not seem to me to be very strong, even from that point of view.

141. We shall come back to that point, I think, on the question of how long it will take a whale fishery to recuperate, if it does recuperate at all. The next point is, "Stations on the West Atlantic may fish from the same schools which become depleted as they move north during summer," by which you mean that the same herd is attacked at different points P-Yes; and

therefore a station, say, off the north-west Irish coast, might have a fair catch from a school which is passing, which may go on towards Iceland, but by the time it gets there it consists of so many fewer that the Iceland people might get very little out of them, compared with what the Irish people did.

142, But you are not arguing against the need for protection there?-No; but several of the Iceland stations, particularly during 1911, had to shut down.

143. The point really present to your mind is that as they move north the herds are attacked from different points and so they are unfairly persecuted ?

-Yes.

144. "Haldane states that finners are not getting rarer at Soutch stations"?Yes; he says that dis- tinctly in two years, in 1907 and in 1910, that they are not getting fewer in numbers, at least I take it to mean that; but there is a point I have stated a little later which seems to me much more important, that the average length of their catch may be getting smaller. That seems to me an important point because the whalers naturally go for the larger whales, and they are gradually lessening the number of mature whales, and in that way they tend to be killing off the potential fathers and mothers of the next generation as well

145. That is another point we want to come to, the age at which they reach maturity. You quote the seasons at Blacksod Station, and you say that 1910 was good?—Yes, that was the first season they had there.

146. That was the first season of the establishment of the Blacksod Station ?-Yes, and it was the only year in which they caught any Nordcapera. They have not caught any since, but they had four in that year.

147. Do you argue anything from the fact that in that year only they caught Nordcapers P--Nordcapers seem to be very rare in the North Atlantic; they very rarely get them, and the other stations in similar positions do not get them either.

148. So that you are disposed to think they have been nearly fished out? That is so, in the North Atlantic.

149. (Mr. Holt.) The Irish stations were started because it was thought one might find the Nordos pers a bit south of the Scotch waters ?--Yes, but that par ticular station is on the north-west coast of Mayo. They had four Nordcapers in their first season, and they have never had one since, and I believe have not seen one since, because if they had seen one they would have chased it immediately.

150. (Chairman.) Then your following seasons are 1911, Fair; 1912, Bad; and 1913, Very good --The last is this season, and it has been a very good sexson.

151. (Mr. Holt.) With regard to 1911, it is not within my recollection that it was "Fair" according to Captain Bruun's statements. Was it not the fact that he would have lost money but for getting a few sperm whales that year P-1911 was the year I was there, and he did get two sperms (I have the figures), but they were both got before I got there, early in the season.

152. He told me it was those two sperms which just' made the difference between profit and loss, and that otherwise it was a very bad season P-The total catch

23 January 1914.]

Mr. STANLEY T. BURFIELD, B.A.

that season was 62, and they had about 2,200 barrels of oil. The two sperms were both caught before I arrived.

153. While we are still on that season, 1911, Captain Bruun told me, rightly or wrongly, that he credited the bad character of that season rather to the excessively fine weather; there were about three months without any rain or wind. Do your observations bear out that in any way The whalers say that a long spell of fine, calm weather does send them farther out, and that may have something to do with it.

154. It might vitiate your statistica more or less!— Yes. The next season after that, 1912, was worse, I believe, but this season has been very good.

155. (Chairman.) At the Iniskes Station you have good seasons in 1908, 1909, and 1913P-Yes. As to 1908 and 1909 the figures were from Mr. Lillie, and as to 1913 I have just had that information given to me by a gentleman who has been to the Blacksod Station this season. He also gave me the 1913 figures for Blacksod.

158. Have you got actual figures P-I have Black- eod for 1913; the total was 65, but it included 10 sperms this season.

157. Have you got the figures for the Iniskes Station as well -No, I have not the figures for In- isken.

158. So far as you have seen figures, the tendency is upwards apparently ?--For this season.

159. Your point, however, is that they show evidence of the whales nearly all being taken sexually mature?— Yes.

160. With a gradually lessening number of mature individuals that is the point you mentioned just now, that they are gradually destroying the parents of the stock P-Yea.

181. Your point (g) is "Average langtha for com- mon finners at Blacksod Station in 1911 were 63 ft., and in 1913, 57 ft."—Yes.

162. You produce that as evidence of the gradual diminution of the size P-Yes, but I admit that more figures would be necessary before judging of that. That seems to show a tendency which perhaps one would rather expect, because the whalers want the largest they can get. True, the American cetologist, gives for his minimum for maturity for the Balaenoptera mus culus, the ordinary finner, 551 ft., in fact, and the aver age this year is 571 ft. They seem to be getting pretty near to that 55 ft. to-day, and the records show it is possible for a whale of that size to be mature, because Haldane, I mentioned, has taken a foetus from a whale of about 50 ft.; but I think that would be rather the exception than the rule.

163. As we are on that point, is there any evidence to show whether there is a different age of maturity for males and females ?-No, I think not. True takes the same figure for males and females.

164. Then you mention (h) that the number of a species taken does not necessarily show a relative degree of commonness, because Blue whales are taken in pre. ference to Humpback and so on P-Yes,

165. That is merely that you cannot argue from proportionate figures as to the stock on the grounds? -No, you cannot,

166. That covers your first head, "The need of pro- tection "P-Yes,

167. (Mr. Baker.) I should like to ask whether you think it is desirable that there should be some regulation or protection in respect of this particular fishery off the north-west Irish coast? Do you think there is some need for protection for the whales as fished from that station P-It is rather difficult to say, because the seasons seem to vary so, whether they consider them good or bad; so that it is difficult to say whether they are fishing them to such an extent on that const as to make a real difference in the numbers which they can possibly catch there, because after having one or two rather bad seasons this season is particularly good again. On the other hand that may be due to having this

·larger number of sperms, because when they get sperm whales off that count they have to go, I think, to about the Island of Rockall, something like 200 miles off the count. If they do not go there they do not get the

[Continued.

sparma; they do not get them further in, and that would make a great deal of difference as to whether they considered a season good or bad, the sperms being valuable whales.

168. How many boats have they fishing from there? -Two, and they had two boats in the 1911 ELNOIL BA well, when I was there; in fact, I think they are the identical boats. The total numbers, 62 for 1911 and 85 for 1913 give you just over 30 per boat.

169. Have you thought of the possibility of fixing a maximum per boat with the idea of protecting whales;

in fact, I might say a maximum number of boats per station and a maximum number of whales per host --- That had not occurred to me, but it seems distinctly feasible.

170. Probably you think the statistica do not enable it to be decided whether there is unreasonable fishing or whether there is absolute need for protection on that atation P-In a perfectly general way it seems to me there is bound to be need for it from the fact that they kill off so many of these apparently mature individuals. 171. (Mr. Holt,) Do you think it would be possible to enforce a regulation that they should not kill whales of less than such and such a length? Do you think it would be a fair regulation to make P-I think it would be so difficult to judge of the length in the water near enough very often. I think it would be very difficult. I believe the whalers could probably judge if they had a fair sight of the whale to within 5 or 10 feet, but I very much doubt as to whether they could judge any nearer the length of a whale in the water.

172. I think you said there is no means of telling a bull from a cow in the water-No; I said I did not think they could distinguish a gravid female as such in the water.

173. Could you tell a bull?-Well, no, I do not think you could, in the water. I do not think they could tell either in the water.

174. The suggestion is made in one of these reports that only the bulls should be allowed to be killed! -Yea!

175. (Chairman.) You regard that as impracticable? -I do not think they could tell a buil from a cow; Ido not think there is sufficient difference between the

sexes.

176. (Mr. Vernon.) I should like to be clear about the question of the maturity of the whales killed. I understand you suggest that the fact that they only take as far as possible nature whales, coupled with the fact that the average length is decreasing, probably is because the total number is decreasing; but you do not suggest that it is undesirable that they should catch the mature whales? I want to be clear about that. Do you suggest that the policy of only killing mature whales is undesirable ?—I think it is distinctly so, because they are, so to speak, killing potentially two generations at once. Considering any two consecutive sessons, for every mature whale they kill they are killing a potential father or mother of a whale for the

next season.

177. That points rather to the desirability of making the restriction the other way to that which was suggested just now; that is to say, instead of putting minimum length to put a maximum length ?—Yes, if any restriction is made based on this alone.

178. Surely the ultimate result of that policy would necessarily be the reduction of numbers; if you kill off all the immature whales you ultimately will not have any?—Yes, it seems to work both ways, certainly; and that might be borne out if other figures could be obtained showing that the average length killed is decreasing. I only give two years, and it may not be so, but they do want the largest they can get in fact, those harpooners are paid partly on a bonus system, and I believe they only get half bonus for anything under 40 feet. As they go particularly for the largest ones, it would be the mature ones which would be reduced in numbers; and, secondly, for every mature whale they kill they are killing apparently a potential father or mother of a whale which might otherwise live in the next season.

179. (Chairman.) I would just like to get this point clear. I understood you put a rather different line of