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10 December 1913.]

WHALING COMMITTEE:

Dr. SIDNEY F. HARMER, M.A., F.R.S.

that the value of whalebone has fallen. That would rather suggest that the whales in the Arctic regions had not reached anything like a period of extinction if the man directly concerned with the trade can say that he attributes it rather to the small prices obtain able for whalebone ?--Yee, and the fact that any vessels go out at all, at least shows that they hope to catch something.

52. (Mr. Lamb.) Our information is that the num ber of ships in Dundee is reduced to one, so that there are not very many now. My reason for asking that question was rather in regard to its hearing on the suggestion that the natural protection which arises from over-fishing might suffice to keep the stock going of itself; that is, when a particular region becomes over-fished it ceases to pay to go there and you have then a natural protection, but apparently in the Arctic regions that has not sufficed, because the number of ves- sels fishing from Dundee has steadily gone down, and that over a large number of years, so long a period that one would have supposed that had the number of fish been increasing the number of vessels would, by this Of course, there time, have increased also?-Quite so.

is the analogous case of the Biscay whale, which was considered by many naturalists to be actually extinct some time ago. I have mentioned that in my memo- randum. That species has reappeared to some extent, but it is nothing like what it used to be in point of numbers.

53. And, of course, that brings us back again to the question of the rapidity of reproduction, because if the whale is very alow in reproducing its species, it would be a very long time before it would get up its numbers naturally? Yes.

54. (Mr. Holt.) There is about 200 years between the supposed extinction of the Biscay Right whale and the discovery that it was abundant-Yes, something of that kind.

55. (Chairman.) You do not believe in the theory that has been advanced in some quarters, that whales, finding themselves persecuted, go away, do not wait to be destroyed, but disappear from a locality ?-I do not think we have much reason to think that is the case. It is a point which is particularly discussed in one of the works I quoted in my memorandum.

56. I know you referred to it P-In an extract from the memoir by Eschricht and Reinhardt, who exam. ined the statistics of the appearance of the Greenland whale at various points along the west coast of Green. land, and found out that even in the times when it was getting scarcer it made its appearance at exactly the same times in the year as when it was more abun dant; and they specially point out their conclusion that there is not the least reason for supposing that the Greenland whale, at any rate, could retire into more inaccessible places as the result of persecution, that it is adapted for cortain kind of life along the edge of the ice, and that ita migrations are necessarily limited by the condition of the ice at different seasons of the year, and therefore it appears at a certain latitude in one month and somewhere else in another month. There was the case of the Newfoundland fisheries. which might also be mentioned in this connection.

57. I was just going to mention the Newfoundland fisheries? There were some remarks in an article in The Times for 7th September 1911 on that subject. I do not know who the writer of this article was, and therefore I do not know what importance must be given to his opinions, but it is a point which he happens to discuss. He said that it was predicted that the fishery would decline very gradually, and that it would be affected by the continued hunting of the animals, caus- ing them to keep further off shore where they are not so easily captured, rather than through any immediate depletion in the ocean schools which frequent the North Atlantic. The writer of that article states that that was not at all the actual fact of the case, that the Newfoundland fishery had exactly the same history aa.all the others have had; it rose to a maximum, and declined very quickly from that point as the result of no evidence apparently over-fishing, and there whe

that, owing to the fact that they were hunted in those waters, they had gone to more inaccessible places.

[Continued.

58. We have a short report here of the Newfound- land fisheries which does not really furnish us with much information, but does show that there is a steady decrease in the number of whales caught. We have now really got on to the question of migration, I think, and one might make the Newfoundland fisheries the starting point for questions on that subject. Do you suppose that there is a connection between the whale which is caught in Newfoundland waters and the whales which are caught on this side of the Atlantic in northern waters -I think most authorities agree they are the same species, but they do not That is a point agree that the herds are the same. which has been specially discussed by True, one of the best American authorities on whaled. I am not sure whether the evidence is based particularly on the Right whale, but he has gone carefully into the question of the measurements of what are regarded as the same species of whales on the two sides of the Atlantic, and he has come to the conclusion that there is a constant difference in size between the whales of our own waters, which are rather larger, and those of the American side, which are rather smaller. The conclusion that True has come to from those facta is certainly that although whales migrate to a considerable extent, north and south, there is practic- ally so migration from east to west across the Atlan- tic, for instance. I have that very clearly stated in a letter which is before me. This was written by a Nor- wegian, and perhaps the English is not in all cases quite as an Englishman would write it. He does not from this conclude that there exist specific differences between the whales inhabiting the two sides of the Atlantic, but he finds it clearly demonstrated that the herds frequenting the two distant areas do not intermingle, their normal line of migration being south to north in summer, rarely, if ever, under normal con- ditions, latitudinally, and that they may be considered racially distinct, not distinct species but races.

59. Although I cannot find the records now, I have heard of records of whales being taken in Norwegian waters, that is to say, in waters north of Norway, with harpoons in them, which had undoubtedly come from the other side of the Atlantic. You have not heard of any such record -I cannot quote any records at the present moment, but I have an impression that I have heard of cases of that kind.

60. I cannot locate the record now?-Some of those statements made about harpoons, I think, are not very credible. There is a record, which I remember, which was given of a harpoon having been found on the east const (or it may have been the other way round), at any rate on one coast of Greenland, within a day or two of the time when the owner of that harpoon had stuck it into the whale on the west coast, which would have meant an almost incredible rate of progress of the whale from one coust to the other, whichever way it went.

61. I think in your memorandum you suggest there

is no progress of whales from the west to the east coast of Greenland-That, I gather, is regarded as a very open question.

62. It is regarded as improbable that there is?--Yes. 63. Still, on the question of migration, you say that there is migration north and south, although probably not east and west, but the north and south migration is limited, I understand, by the position of the ice?-With regard to the Greenland whule?

64. I am for the moment speaking of the Greenland whale? Yes. I understand it is entirely limited by the ice conditions; it follows the edge of the ice.

65. And that, you think, is satisfactorily esta- blished?--I think so; all the accounts I have seen on that subject have been in agreement.

66. Would a similar statement apply to any of the Antarotic whales? I mean, is there any other whale the movements of which are governed by similar con- ditions, that is to say, by the position of the ice ?—I do not know of any other. You see, if these whales that are being caught in the Antarctic Circle are the same as our own species, then it is obvious that they do not follow the ice in that way.

67. You mean if they are the same, in the sense that they are not even racially distinct P-Yes.

10 December 1913)

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Dr. SIDNEY F. HARMER, M.A., V.E.S.

68. In that case there would be a migration across the line-Yo, very large migrations.

69. In the case of some whales, I suppose, there is a migration across the line P-I think there must be in the case of Sperm whales.

70. (Mr. Darnley.) And Humpbacks ?--I should like just to call attention to a very definite statement Mr. Salvesen has committed himself to.

I believe you

are to ask him to give evidence.

71. (Chairman.) We were thinking of that?--Per- hape you could find out whether he has any definite evidence on this point. It was in a lecture he gave to the Royal Society of Arts, and he says, on page 517, that the whaling season on the South Atlantic stations closes about the month of May, by which time the whales have proceeded into warmer waters, and are found on the coasts of South Africa, South America, Australia, and New Zealand. That is rather a definite statement.

72. These are Antarctic whales, are they not?-I understand him to mean the Antarctic whales; it ful- lows immediately after a paragraph which began, "Talking about South Georgia"; and by "The South "Atlantio stations." I understood him to mean South Georgia and the South Shetlands. It closes about the month of May. That is about right, is it not?

73. (Mr. Darnley.) Bat in South Georgia it is not completely suspended; a certain amount of it goes on, too, during the Antarctic winter.-When does it stop in the South Shetlands ?

74. It is closed in the Antarcticwinter owing to the ice. Would it be about May or a little earlier?

75. I think a little earlier.That is what he means clearly; he states that those whales do go to the conti- nental consta. It might be desirable to ask about that.

76, (Mr. Lamb.) I might be allowed to get a reply to an earlier question. Do you say that this north and south migration crosses the Line: that whales from the Northern Hemisphere will go into the Southern or not: is that known ? So far as am aware, it is not known about most of the species. Mr. Maurice asked me just now whether it was known of any species, and I said I thought perhaps it was in the case of the Sperm whale, which does occur on both sides of the Equator in large numbers.

77. (Mr. Darnley.) And I imagine the Humpback also, is not that so? Is there not a migration of Hump- backs up the West Coast of Africa ?—I should think it is very probable.

78. (Chairman.) On page 4 of your memorandum on the subject of migration you refer to a map which indicates, among other things, different routes for the old males from those of the females and young males. That is for the Greenland whale, I understand? That is the Greenland whale.

79. You have no similar information with regard to other whales ?—No, it is the only case of the kind that I know of.

80. It would be important, of course, from the point of view of protection, if one could establish anything like routee P-Very important indeed.

81. Apart from the question of different routes for females and males, have we got any information on the actual routes followed in migration of different kinda of whales which might possibly assist us in finding localities suitable for protection? So far as I know there are no very satisfactory accounts of the routes of migration. No doubt you can get a certain amount of information from the records of the whaling stations. On the Irish coast, for instance, you know certain species may be expected to appear at particular times of the year.

82. That would be on the assumption that they were the same herds? Yes, but whatever the assumption certain species are only there at particular times of the year; what happens to them afterwards or before I do not think one knows.

83. One is bound to assume more or less that they are at the place where they are next found-to assume that those you find at a later season somewhere else are the same herd or herds -Yes, perhapa.

84. It would be impossible, I imagine, in your view, for the whales to disappear out of sight completely. I

[Continued.

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mean nowadays the whole of the sea is so covered with traffic one way or another that it would be impossible for whales to be anywhere where they would not be seen. with the exception of perhaps the remote Arctio or Ant- arctic Circles-I think in the open ocean probably the whales might travel about a good deal without the facts being at all accurately known or reported.

85. Yes, they might escape observation accidentally, but the probability would be that a school of whales would be seen P-I should think if there was a large school of whales travelling all at once it would be seen. If, however, they were spaced out at considerable intervals they might not be noticed.

86. In any case the whale cannot disappear under the surface of the water for any length of time ?—No.

87. He could not submerge himself for a long period P-Quite so.

88. There is another question that I think does arise on migration (I am trying to deal with all ques- tions of migration now, so that all questions on migra tion may be asked you at the same time); you have mentioned it in that connection, and that is the ques tion of food. The question I am leading up to is not really the question of migration. Can all whales take fish so far as you know?-By whales do you mean the whalebone whales ?

89. I mean all the whales as a matter of fact, but say all the whalebone whales. You mention some which do here?—Yes.

90. It is the Rorquals you have here?-I imagine they could not in any case avoid taking a certain num. ber of young fishes accidentally from time to time, but they have some power of selection, and if they do not happen to like fishes they probably would not eat them to any great extent. There was a case quoted by Col- lett (I have not mentioned, it in my memorandum) of one of the Rorquals, I think a Common Rorqual on the occasion in question, which was described as swimming through a shoal of herrings, which were present in such numbers that they were touching the whale on each side, but I suppose it was keeping its mouth shut as it was not taking any at all. It was reserving itself for the crustacea that were available at that time of the year.

91. They are toothless?-Quite.

92. But they could take fish and digest them ?— Yes, they must swallow them whole, I imagine; they cannot masticate them in any way.

93. But some kinds of whales seem to follow her- ring shoals, do they not?-They do.

94. A question came into my mind, although I feel it is not absolutely germane to this inquiry, whether the disappearance, or practical disappearance, of the Green- land whale may be connected in any sense with the in- crease of herring off our coasts; and whether, because you can get oil from herring apart from whalebone. from the economical point of view you might get a balance of Nature arising from the disappearance of the whales ? That is a question which I think is not at all understood, but the connection between the Green- land whale and herring can only be an indirect one, I think, because, to the beat of my belief, the Greenland whale is a species which does not feed on herring, and so far as I know not on fiah at all. It feeds mainly on small invertebrates.

95. One other point. You refer at the bottom of page 4 to hydrographical investigations in this connec- tion, and I am not sure whether you intend to suggest there that hydrographical investigations may ultimately indicate to us probable routes which would assist us in finding a method of protection?-It seems to me that it is quite possible they might.

96. It would take a long time, though ?—It would. 97. It would mean a very lengthy investigation, and would not really assist us at the present moment f Probably not.

98. Not with our present knowledge of hydrogra- phical conditione P-No, I think I should agree with that. 99. (Mr. Baker.) Do you think that the Southeru Right whale, which is being hunted off the Falklands. South Shetlands, and South Georgia, comes up to Africa at any seasons of the year? Do you think there is less migration in the case of the Southern Right whale should think it was very likely there was

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