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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

23 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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10 December 1918.]

WHALING COMMITTEE:

Dr. SIDNEY F. HARMER, M.A., F.B.S.

instance, will calve P-I know of no definite informa- tion on that subject, and I feel sure that we want more, however large it may be.

7. Of course, from the point of view from which we are considering this question, if the destruction of whales is going on so rapidly now that remedial mea aures are urgently necessary, there is not much time for investigation, because the investigations would have to be carried on over a long time, would they not?—Yes. 8. We shall have to act, if we act at all, on the evidence which is now available, for the most part?—Yes. 9. There is only one calf at a time, as far as we know, I think P-In the great majority of cases I believe there is only one; there are instances of two being born at the same time, but I think I am right in saying that those are very rare.

10. And again we do not know what is the period of maturity in the whale-I mean at what age, for instance, reproduction commences in the whale ?-That question is very closely connected with the one of the rate of growth.

11. Exactly; our ignorance is the same on all points, really!-- Yes.

12. Of course, all these questiona bear upon the question of a close time, which is why we are anxious to get information on that point if we can get it.

(Mr. Baker). Perhaps I might ask whether it is possible if information is available as to the period of gestation of a mammal, the period it takes to reach maturity and generally its life-to draw any inferences from those facts and the relation they bear to one another, which would enable you to make a careful estimate at all as to how long it takes a whale to become mature or as to what is the life of a whale-I am afraid I do not fully understand the point of the question.

13. The whale being a very large mammal, are there any inferences which can be drawn, or can you estimate at all what the life of the whale is likely to be and the time it takes to reach maturity compared, for example, with an elephant, or any other mammal. Is anything known at all as to the probable life of the whale?-My impression is that there is nothing known certainly on that question. There have been speculations, of course, but I do not think they are based on anything very definite.

14. (Mr. Darnley.) It amounts to this, that as far as you know there is no definite connection between the Bize of an animal and the time it takes to reach maturity; is that so?-Yea. I think you may say that you cannot state it as a simple mathematical expression.

15. (Chairman.) I will proceed with my further questions, going through your memorandum, I think, just taking the questions as they arise on it. They are not really very extensive. One preliminary question I wish to sek is upon what you mention in the fourth paragraph. You refer to the Greenland whale, and then to the allied Biscay whale and the Atlantic Right whale or Nordkaper; the last three are all one species -Yes,

that is what I mean.

16. I understand that, although in Mr. Rothe child's list, which appeared at the end of one of the British Museum Memoranda, there are a great number of differont whales mentioned by name, there is some doubt, is there not, as to the identity of some of the species, as to whether they are not, as a matter of fact, different names for members of the same species found in different localities?Yes, there is

a great deal of doubt on that question. In a former catalogue issued by the British Museum a certain number of new species were recorded on what I think most people would admit was most unsatisfactory evidence for instance, on the characters of a single vertebrae; and it is quite uncertain whether some of those species described by Dr. J. E. Gray are really definite species, or whether they are synonyma of others which ware known previously.

17. I ask that question because it seems to me to bear on the question of migration, but I fancy we have no very complete knowledge about the area of migration of whales, which again bears on the question of pro-. tection, and it seemed to me that if there was some

• No. 41 in Miscellaneous, No. 278.

Pp. 3-5 of Miscellaneous, No. 278.

[Continued.

unaertainty about the precisa identity of different aperies (I mean their particular identity as distinguished from others very like them), and if it might be the case that a number of whales were called by different names which were in fact the same species, we might discover that there was more intermigration than one had pre- viously suspected ?—I entirely agree with that. Ithink it is most important to get as full information as we can with regard to the species of whales that actually exist at the present time. I do not think that we know quite definitely at present whether the Antarctic species are the same as our own; they are called by the same names by the whalers, and apparently they are very closely allied, but I do not think it is definitely ascer- tained whether they are to be regarded as the same species or not.

18. Can you suggest any way by which that in- formation could be obtained in anything like a reason- I admit that "reasonable" is a word able time? which requires some interpretation ?-I think partly by collecting nuterial which could be compared, and partly by making use of the services of some person like Major Barrett-Hamilton, as in being done at the present time, to examine the question on the spot. I think a person of that kind could do a good deal.

19. A person who is not scientifically trained P No, I did not mean that. I think it is very desir able that the person should have some scientific training.

20. I was not suggesting that you would not desire it, but a person who is not scientifically trained could collect very useful material for a scientist to examine at any rate?—Yes.

necessarily 21. And procure useful data-not scientific-but data in the form of results of inquiries -Yes.

I might give perhaps an instance of one thing which I think could be done quite easily. The species of whalebone whale are distinguished from one another fairly readily by means of the character of the whalexine or baleen. That meets the point because the character of the baleen of the specimens captured could comparatively easily be examined on the spot by some one who was there.

22. But the person who was going to conduct such an examination ought to be scientifically trained ?—I think so; it is very desirable.

23. So that it would almost be a case of sending one or more sorts of special commissioners to make a world tour of the whaling stations ?—Yes, I think so.

24. Unless you could find scientista on the spot. which is improbable?—Yes.

25. It is not likely except by accident that you would find the right man in the right place -No. One thing which I think is very badly wanted is a simultaneous examination of the whaling stations in different parts of the range of the whales.

26. Of the same whales ?--Yen. For instance, there is a great deal of whaling going on in South Georgia and in the Antarctic Cirole at certain times of the year, and there is a great deal of whaling going on at the southern ends of the principal continents South Africa, South America, Australia, and New Zealand and it is extremely important to know whether they are fishing the same herds of whales or not. I do not know quite certainly whether they are pursuing even the same species. There was a paper read at the Zoological Society a week or two ago in which a Nor- wegian author described what he says is a new species of Borqual, the account being based on observations I do not know whether the made in South Africa. species is distinct or not, but, at any rate, that is the opinion of the author, who maintained the view that this species does not migrate to any great extent, but is found hanging about the South African cosat, moving up and down the coast but not going further afield. One wants to know all about those things, how far they are true, or whether you are trying to exterminate the same species of whale at one time of the year in high latitudes round the South Pole, and at another time of the year in places like South Africa.

27. That arises on the question of migration which comes a little further down your memorandurn P-Yea.

28. (Mr. Darnley.) Is it established that there is more than one species of Right whale besides the

10 December 1913.]

A

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,

Dr. SIDNEY F. HARMER, K.A., T.R.8.

Greenland whale P-No; I do not think it is established, but the view is maintained by reliable authorities.

29. What is the accepted classification? Is it the Southern Right whale, the Atlantic Right whale, and the Biscay Right whale? Are those regarded as distinct? Of course, everyone admits the Greenland whale; there is no doubt about that. Then you have the Atlantio whale which I have called by three names in my memorandum:-The Biscay whale, the Atlantic Right whale or the Nordkaper. The chances are that these are all one species. Then you have the Southern Right whale, which is found described in many books under the name of Balasna australis. It is a somewhat open question whether the Balaena australis is, or is not, the same as the glacialis or biscayensts whale, Flower, who was a great authority, and who was the Director of the Natural History Museum, maintained that aus tralis and biscayensis were the same thing. I could mention one modern authority, at any rate, who takes a different view and regards the Southern Right whale as a distinct species. Then, of course, there is one in the North Pacific-in the Japanese sens and the neigh. bouring part of the Pacific, and that again has been considered to be a distinct species. So far as I know, we cannot regard those questions as being definitely settled.

30. In there any reason to think there are different Right whales in the South Pacific and in the South Atlantio P-I am not prepared to answer that question definitely. There are some zoologists, I think, who would probably make different species of the whales from most of the different localities, but I cannot say that I know any definite reasons for believing that the various forms of whales which occur in the far South constitute more than a single species.

31. (Mr. Holt.) Do you know if the range of the so-called Biscay whale and the Southern Right whale overlap-No, I do not know that they do, and I know no reason for supposing that they do.

32. Although they may be the same species as far ne we know, at any rate they have perfectly separate habitats-I should say so; I do not know of any continuity in any part of the world.

33. (Chairman) Arising out of the questions Mr. Darnley was asking you it amounts to this, I think, that there is no doubt about the Greenland whale as a distinct species. Then there may be a doubt about the three whales (I have a list before me of the scientific names of these whales) which are called respectively Balaena biscayensis, japonica, and australie, and the separation of those three may not be entirely justified?

That is so.

34. Then, in addition to those, I understand there are two other species of Right whales which are called the Blue whale and the Grey whale respectively (do you recognise that) which are found in the North Pacific I think it is very doubtful whether those namee refer to Right whales.

35. They are given an alarming name-Rhachia- nectes glaucus --I suppose that to be the species indicated as the Grey whale.

36. That is put against both of them in this list as if the Blue and Grey whales were identical as far us the technical name is concerned?-The name Blue whale is generally applied to one of the Rorquals, that is Sibbald's Rorqual.

37. The Blue whale ? Yes. the whalers mean Sibbald's Rorqual when they speak of the Blue whale, but it may conceivably be applied to Rhachianectes or something else.

38. But the Grey whale is Rhachianoctes f—Yes. 39. That is another species of Right whale?—No, in certain points it more nearly resembles the Fin whales. I came across a statement only to-day, shortly before I came to this meeting, and I had not an opportunity of looking into the evidence, but I confess it surprised me a good deal. This is in a letter I received some time ago from a person who has experience of the whaling indus- try in Christiania, and he ends up his letter by telling me he believes the Pacific Grey whale to be extinct. That surprised me, and I do not know whether it is true or not, but it is based on a Report by Pro- fessor E. E. Prince.

5

[C'ontinued.

40. That is Professor Prince of Canada, I suppose? -Yes, that statement seems to be taken from the Report of the Department of Marine and Fisheries of the Dominion of Canada for 1905.

41. I believe Profesor Prince is generally very reliable in his statements from what I have heard of him-Yes, I know him.

42. You will agree, I think, that that question of the distinction of the species of Right whales ia impor- tant again with regard to the question of intermigra tion-Very important indeed.

43. Because if you take the South Pacific and the South Atlantic, if you have got two species distinguished by name but really identical in these two places, it may be that there is intermigration between the two sens? -Yes.

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44. May I ask you this question on the first of your memorandumi, three paragraphs from the bottom, where we find the statement, "As early as the first part " of the eighteenth century the whalers commenced to leave this sea for that of Greenland and Davis "Straits." I was in some doubt as to whether "the eighteenth was a misprint for the nineteenth"; there is evidence both ways in these paragraphs, but the reason why I thought it might be a misprint is because in the last paragraph but one we find the statement that "A single vessel obtained 44 whales, near Spitz. bergen, in that year," which is 1814 P-I think it is quite possible that it may be wrong: I do not think I quoted it wrongly.

45. So many people do, of course, call the century which begins with 18 the eighteenth century--The paper I was quoting from was an English translation of the Scandinavian original, and I have found that in looking up Soandinavian papers you have to be very careful how you translate their expressions, and he may have said, "In the eighteen hundred years," meaning the years beginning 1800.

46. Because those two statements appear to be mutually destructive, more or less P-Yes,

47. My point was this: If it were really the case that the whales were almost exterminated early in the eighteenth century, and again that one ship obtained 44 whales early in the nineteenth century, that would suggest that there had been a considerable recupera- tion ?--Yes, but I do not think there is any reusan to suppose that any recuperation of that kind took place.

48. Then I think that probably "eighteenth" is a misprint or mistranslation P-I think it is possible. If it would be any satisfaction I could look into that point and let you know.

49. Í do not know that very much turns on it, but the point in there, and I thought we should ask the question.

(Mr. Lamb.) Is it the case that, although the fishing in the Arotio regions has practically ceased, the stock of whales is not now increasing P-I do not think we know about that. I gather that one or two vessels have gone to the Arctic fishery from places like Dundee in the last two or three years, and they have had very bad luck so far as I understand. I imagine they have done their best to catch whales, and it does not look as if there was any special reason for thinking that a re ouperation is going on there.

50. That would rather point to the fact that the diminution had reached such a stage as to be practically extermination in the Arctic regions? Well, perhaps not quite necessarily, because if the whales became very few they might easily be overlooked altogether, and they might gradually be getting more numerous again without its being noticed for some time.

51. (Chairman.) On the other hand we have a state- ment which comes from Dundee, a statement made in the memorandum supplied by the Superintendent of the Board of Trade there, that the decay in the indus- try is due, not so much to the scarcity of the whale as to the low value of the Arctic produce. So long as whalebone was at about 2,0001. a ton it was worth risk- ing, but bone now is selling considerably under 1,000l. a ton. In another memorandum which we got from the Acting-Superintendent of the Mercantile Marine Office of the Board of Trade, Dundee, he gives both causes; he says there is a scarcity of whales, and also