CO885-(19-20) — Page 5

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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27 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. R. L. ANTROBUS, C.B.

nial Office?-No, I would not; I do not think so. The position of the Crown Agents, after all—although they five in a separate building and have a separate organi- sation-is very much the same as that of a Depart ment of the Colonial Office. Compare the Crown Agents with an Assistant Under Secretary, like my self. We exercise our discretion in dealing with a great many things, and there are a certain number of things which are from time to time referred for the decision of the Secretary of State. That is the way in which the Crown Agents do their business; they deal on their own responsibility with, of course, a very large proportion of the work they do; but there are a certain number of things that they refer for in- structions.

2895. On the other hand, do you think it would be of advantage if they were put more directly under the orders of the Crown Colony Governments?—I do not think that is practicable-I mean owing to the number of Crown Colony Governments and the different ways in which they would be pulling.

3906. Then we come to the question of this alleged independence. Do you think it is essential for the sucessful working of their business that they should enjoy this peculiar measure of independence?—What independence 7

3807. They claim an independence, more or less, of the Secretary of State, and of the Crown Colony Go- vernments. Do you think it is advisable that they should enjoy an independence of that nature --No, I dy not think it is necessary, and, as a inatter of fact, whatever views or theories may have been put for ward, in practice they never do claim independence.

3808. The evidence from the Crown Agents them- selves is conflicting, one of them claiming that they act with entire independence, and the other admitting that they are under the direction and supervision of the Secretary of State. Which position do you con- sider the correct one?—I consider the second view is the correct one. They are under the onlers of the Secretary of State, and I do not think that in practice (this is the point I should like to make) that is ever disputed.

309. Further, one of the Crown Agents held that they were under the instructions of the Colonial Governments, that they operated under the instruc- tions of the Colonial Governments. Would you take that to be the case, or think that such a position would be desirable?—I think they do up to a certain point act under the orders of the Colonial Govern- ments, but, owing to certain general rules which have been laid down by the Secretary of State, there are points where they have to refer to the Colonial Office.

3810. (Mr. Gibson.) They certainly could not act, I take it, under the orders or instructions of the various Colonial Governments when such instructions would be known by the Crown Agents to be directly antagon istic to the general rules laid down by the Colonial Office?-No.

3811. (Chairman.) Then there is the question as to the Crown Agents absolute and special control over their own officers; on that point I think you have given us the view that you think the existing control should be continued 7-Yes, that is my opinion.

3812. And with regard to the question of appoint- ments, you consider that they should have the right to appoint? Yes. I think they should.

3813. And as to the question of dismissal should that be entirely in their hands without any appeal?— With regard to appointments, I think it is a question whether, before a man is put upon the permanent staff. his appointment should not be confirmed by the Secretary of State. just exactly as is done in the Crown Colonies.

XLI. You would suggest that the system should assimilate itself to some extent to that pursued in appointments of officers in the Crown Colonies?-I think so, where, of course, as you know, the majority of appointments are made by the Governor and merely confirmed by the Secretary of State.

3815. And the appointments on the permanent staff of the Crown Agents, you would suggest, should be subject, then, to confirmation by the Secretary of State-I did not say I suggested it myself; I

think it is a matter for consideration. I am not quite sure that it is worth while doing that; but with" regard to dismissals, whatever you lay down there will be an appeal to the Secretary of State, and I think dismissal ought to be subject to the approval of the Secretary of State.

3816. (Mr. Harris.) Are you aware that the Crown Agents at present claim that there is no appeal to the Secretary of State, and that they can dismiss abso lutely? Have no doubt they do, but I was only meaning that as we have often said in this office with regard to the appointments in the Colonies under £100 a year, which are supposed to be absolutely in the power of the Governor, there is always more or less în appeal. If a man wishes to appeal, the Secretary of State cannot absolutely refuse to go into the matter.

3817. (Chairman.) He would then appeal in the form of a petition ?—Yes, in the form of a letter to the Secretary of State, or in some way making his views known.

3818. But there would be no regularly laid down channel for his appeal?—No, and I am not at all sure that it is necessary to lay down any channel-in fact, as one thinks about it now, I am inclined to say that I would not lay down any hard and fast rule about that; I would leave the power with the Crown Agents, because we know that if there was any case of hard. ship or injustice, it would be almost certain to be

reviewed.

3819. Does it suggest itself to you that, perhaps, the Colonial Regulations for appointment and dismissal might be suitable for the organisation of the Crown Agents Office generally?-Yes, I have not actually thought of it from that point of view, but I am inclined to think it might be so.

3820. You are well acquainted with them, and with the powers the Governors have, and you think that the Crown Agents might have approximately the powers of the Governors with regard to their staff?- Yes, I think so if it is desired to limit their powers. My own feeling would be that it is not desirable to make any change from the present position, but if it is desired to make any change, I think some change in that direction is the right one to make; that is to say, in the way of assimilating the practice to the practice in the Crown Colonies.

3821. The Crown Agent having approximately the powers of a Governor?--Yes; but I should like to say that I do not myself think that any case has been made out for a change at present.

3822, (Mr. Gibson.) Are you referring now to the method of appointment of the staff of the Crown Agents 7-Yes.

3823. Would you prefer to leave it absolutely within the control of the Crown Agents?—Yes.

3824. And not to be subject to competitive examina- tion or anything of that sort?—No, I should leave it as it is now.

3825. Without any requirements as to educational fitness, or medical inspection, or anything of that sort? Is it not the case that quite recently with regard to these appointments in the Crown Colonies you are laying down schemes of examination and educational qualifications which the candidates have to undergo?- the case of the tropical African Colo- nies and Protectorates we are giving special instruction to candidates, instruction in tropical economic pro- ducts, the laws of the Colonies, and things of that kind, but we are not requiring at present an educa- tional test.

3826. I should like to ask with regard to the appointments in the Straits Settlements whether there have not been several competitive posts in the past; they have been linked with The Indian civil appoint- ments-Yes, in the East there is a Civil Hervico similar to the Indian Civil Service, but that only covers a very small part of the whole of the Civil Ser- vices of these Eastern Colonies.

3827. I take it that it covers the appointments of the men who are expected to rise to the higher posts ultimately?—Yes.

302. I do not know if you have any knowledge of the relative calibre; but would it not be regarded, or assumed. that the appointments in the Straits Settle-

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. R. L. ASTROBUS, C.B.

ments are filled by a better class of man than those in the East and West African Colonies?--Yes; but I do not think that is due to the fact of examination; it is due to the attractions of the servico.

89. Would you say that the attractions of the Straits and Ceylon are superior to those in East and West Africa-I would put it the other way. The drawbacks are felt so very strongly in the case of the West African Colonies. It may be that there is an exaggerated fear of the climate; but that is the fact.

3830, Then 1 will limit my question to East Africa-East Africa has a better reputation than West Africa; but I really do not think it is much better. It is partly that, and partly that the prospects are not at present nearly so good. East Africa and West Africa have both got to bo developed.

Seal. Taking the Crown Agents' own department in London, you are aware that by far the greater part of their work-more than half of their staff, really-is composed of very subordinate officials, who are at pre- sent largely obtained through the Civil Service Com- mission-Yes; and I think before you came in I said I really had no opinion to express about them. What I was thinking about were the higher ones.

32. With regard to the higher appointments, are you aware that some of the most satisfactory candi- dates they have obtained have been candidates who had qualified at the Civil Service examinations?—No, I did not know, but I can quite believe that.

1833. There has been a variety of methods of ap: pointment to the higher posts, but we certainly had evidence from one of the Crown Agents that, not being satisfied with the calibre of the people obtained, he thought it advisable to resort to the Civil Service Commissioners to get a better class of man-I have done that myself when I was private secretary, 25 years ago. We went

to the Civil Service Commis- sioners and asked them to let us have the names of candidates who had just failed to get into the Indian Civil Service, with a view to appointing them to Wust Africa and places of that kind, and we got several candidates in that way.

3. Personally, I have had a little experience in the system of nomination, and unless you get Univer- sity men I think it is rather difficult really to get people from 20 to 21 outside the ordinary run of the Civil Service. You do not think it would be diffi. calt for them to get a good class of man simply by nomination?—I should not have thought so; I should not have thought they had so many to get that they would have any difficulty; but I should not fetter their discretion in any way I should leave it quite open to them to ask the Civil Service Commissioners or any- bly to help them to get the men.

38%. (Chairman.) But from your connection with the Crown Agenis, and coming into contact with the officials doing their work, no doubt considerably,,do you think the men in their higher appointments should be men of considerable capacity ?-Well, it is a relative term, and it is difficult to say exactly where you would draw the line; but they must be men with plenty of business capacity.

336. But at the same time you do not think a com- petitive examination is likely to produce that better than arbitrary selection -No, I do not; although I quite agree that open competitive examination, or competitive examination, is the only possible way of recruiting the Home Civil Service. I do not think it is an ideal way of selecting people, and unless you are obliged to adopt it I would certainly never adopt il in anything. You get in that way men who are in- dustrious and then who have got brains, but they are not always the people you want to do the work they have to do.

1837. (Mr. fibson.) You are aware that precisely similar work is done at the War Office, the Admiralty. and the India Office, by men obtained through the Civil Service?—Yes; I do not suppose it really very much matters, but I should make the Crown Agents esponsible for their own staff, and leave the selection them. The only reason I can imagine for interfer- ing with the Crown Agents is if it was believed that ther were improperly using the posts at their disposal to put in their own friends and relations.

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(27 July 1908.

#838, (Chairman.) Then we come to the question of salaries, and I take it that the salaries of the Crown Agents themselves are definitely settled by the Secre- tary of State? They are.

38. With regard to the salaries of the staff, the Crown Agents are allowed by the Secretary of State a lump sum for making provision for thein ?- be- lieve that is what it is now, but I have not had any thing to do with that of late years. I was surprised when I heard of it, and it was only within the last few weeks that I found that was the practice. I am sur 20 years ago the salaries used to be settled by the Secretary of State.

3840. (Mr. Gibson.) I think we have had evidence upon that point that the scheme was abandoned in 18851–1 ani not an authority upon that point.

3811. (Chairman.) As matter of fact, the Crown Agents have the right of arbitrarily settling the salarios of all the individuals on their staff?—I d'd not know that.

3842. And also it is undoubted that they have no definite scale of pay or increment, nor is there any definite scheme as to pensions. With your experience, would you consider that to be a good scheme for run- ning an office such as the Crown Agents'?—No, cor- tainly not.

3843. Would you suggest that they should have a definite and fixed rate of pay attached to the various offices? Yes, that is what I should suggest.

3814. Independent of the individual?—Yes. 3845. With a definite increment?-Yes.

3846. And with a fixed scale as to pensions?-As to pensions, I have always understood that there was a fixed scale; that is to say, it has been laid down by the Secretary of State that pensions are to be granted in accordance with the rules of the Home Civil Ber- vice, and I believe they have always been granted in that way with certain exceptions. In certain cases the Crown Agents have pressed for higher pensions either for themselves, or for their staff. In that way some pensions have been granted outside the rules, but I have always understood (I may be wrong) that it had been definitely laid down by the Secretary of State that the rules of the Home Civil Service were to be applied. 8947. In the case of pensions?-In the case of ponsions

3848. (Mr. Bailey.) In any case, is it your opinion that those rules should apply to the staff of the Crown Agents-Yes, it is.

3849. (Chairman.) Of course, the fund maintained for all their payments, and so on, is a fund collected by the Crown Agents from the results of their work in past years. To whom would your regard that fund as belonging-That is a point which has been very often discussed. I have always maintained that it belongs to the Colonies who have provided the fund.

3850. That those funds are really Crown Colony funds, provided for the purpose of maintaining their agency in this country -Yes. I have always main- tained that if the Crown Agents' Office were broken up, those funds would really have to be returned to the Colonies from whom they came. I admit that would be a very difficult thing to do.

3851. But that the Crown Colonies are the owners of that fund?There is nobody else who has got such a strong claim to it.

* 3852. (Mr. Gibson.) It would only revert to them in the case of insolvency. You would not admit any claim from the Crown Colonies now, would you? Looking to the fact that the reserve fund now amounts to nearly half a million, and that it is not needed really for the purposes for which it was originally accumulated, would you admit a claim from the Crown Colonies that it should be divided amongst them pro rata?--I would admit it so far, that if there is this fund which is too big for the purpose for which it has boen got together, the charges made to the Crown Colonies for the business the Crown Agents do for them should be reduced. I think it is a question really whether, any fund is wanted at all. I have always been inclined to think that the fund has led to erroneous views as to the position of the Crown

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