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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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158

27 July 1908,]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. J. A. MULLENS.

3755. That is purely placing the Imperial Govern- ment credit in place of the Colonial Government credit ?—Yes.

3756. Could you say in that connection whether the collective credit of the Crown Agents is, on the whole, higher than that of any one self-governing Colony - It used to be, but is not now, solely from the fact that lately, owing to these very large loans that have been issued (it is only a question of supply and demand) there has been more supply, and, therefore, the price has fallen. Formerly it used to stand higher than the Australian Colonies certainly; but now there is practically. I should say, nothing in it one way or

the other.

3757. There is nothing in the name, you think?- Certain loans stand higher because they are old; for instance, Hong Kong 3 per cent, stock stands now at 100 simply because it has been absorbed and investors hold it, and when trustees buy stocks they very seldom sell them again. Again, you have got the Southern Nigeria 3 per cent. stock which you can buy at 963, four points below the price of the Hong Kong, simply because it has not been absorbed. That applies to any new issue of Colonial stocks; it must always be lower than the old stocks.

3738. (Chairman.) It takes time for the absorption by the public? That is so; and again, of course, the new loan must be brought out at a lower price than the existing quotation; otherwise, you could never get anyone to take it up.

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3759. (Sir Albert Spicer.) With regard to a question of Mr. Harris, do the City realise that then is any- thing like a collective responsibility-I think they are under the impression that none of the Crown Colonies would ever be allowed to default.

8760. (Mr. Bailey.) 'Default in what way-Default in the payment of their interest or repayment of their obligations.

3761. (Mr. Harris.) 1 will put the question which Sir Albert has in his mind. in another way: Would not a loan issued by the Crown Agents for a West Indian island-say, for instance, St. Kitts-have a much better chance of being floated successfully than if the Government of the Leewards had a separat agent, who tried to issue a small loan of, say, £200,000 for St. Kitts-Certainly, they would get a better price in an issue through the Crown Agents.

3762. (Mr. Leathes.) What would be the effect on the Imperial credit if the Imperial Government guaran- teed all these loans? Would it not react a little in that way I do not see why it should at all.

3763. (Mr. Bailey.) Supposing you got a small Colony wiped out by an earthquake, do you not think you are a little sanguine in assuming that the Trea- sury would be prepared to pay the bills for that Colony-It is very hard on the wretched people who have got the stock. My point only is to point ont that if they were guaranteed certainly their credit would be materially improved. Of course, it is a very big question, and it is only a point I raise,

3764. (Chairman.) The placing of these loans through one source you are quite sure gives them a much better position than if they were placed through several independent sources?-Certainly; simply be cause they are in touch with all the big financial houses, whereas an agent would not be; he would not know the people, and he would not know where to go to. I wrote out the answers formally to the questions that were sent to me, and I now hand in these, as it. perhaps, makes it a little clearer than by cross- examination (handing in the same).

The witness withdrew.

Mr. R. L. ASTROBUS, C.B., called and examined.

3765. (Chairman.) Would you tell us how long you have been an Under Secretary of State dealing with the Crown Agents?-I have been an Assistant Under- Secretary of State for ten years.

3766. And previously in the Colonial Office for how leng? Altogether for 31 years.

3767. And the whole time really the Crown-Agents' work has been before you, more or less?-Yes, practi- cally the whole time. I have been working in very close, one might say, co-operation with them.

3768. We have some notes here which, perhaps, I had better go through, and then afterwards you can tell us anything further you wish to add. Have you formed any general opinion as to the results obtained by the Crown Agents' Office during the time you have been in touch with them?-Yes. On the whole. I think the work is done very well; in fact, if it had not been done well, it would have been our business in the Colonial Office to see that it was done well.

3700. Would you regard it as having been done ex- peditiously 7-Yes, very expeditiously; the only point upon which any question of delay has arisen has been with regard to stores. But that is, of course, only one branch of all the work they do.

8770. On the other hand, would you regard it as having generally been done to the satisfaction of the Crown Colonies-I think it has. They have grumbled at the delays in supplying stores, but I do not know that they have ever found any fault with the way in which the general business of paying salaries and all that class of work is done, nor have they, so far as I know, ever substantiated any serious complaint as to the quality of the stores or the price of stores.

3771. In your view, both in the Colonial Office and at the other end, in the Crown Colonies, the work has been performed satisfactorily generally 7-I think so,

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3772. The next point is the view that has generally been held as to the relation of the Crown Agents to the Secretary of State. Could you give us your views on that? Different views have been propounded about that from time to time, but in practice I do not think there has ever been any doubt as to what the relations were. In practice the Secretary of State has appointed the Crown Agents, and the Crown Agents have in- variably carried out any instructions he has given them, and, I may say, in many cases they refer and ask for instructions.

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3773. What would you regard to be the tenure of the Crown Agents' Office? They are appointed by the Secretary of State. Is the Secretary of State in position to dispense with their services?-Certainly.

3774. So that they hold at the pleasure of the Crown, as other Government officials do?-Certainly.

3775. We have had it in evidence here. I see Colonel Seely has made a note as to the appointment of the Crown Agents' staff. That has been left entirely in the hands of the Crown Agents themselves? --Yes, absolutely.

3776. What is your view as to the desirability of the continuance of that, or otherwise I do not think there has been any ground shown for making any alteration; I think it has worked very well, at any rate, with regard to the higher staff.

3777. Do you think that the present method of selection is a desirable one, or that there should be some assimilation to the methods of the ordinary Civil Service?--I do not quite know what you mean. Do you mean that there should be an open competitive examination?

3778. Yes, or any other method?--No, I do not think competitive examination is an ideal way of selecting anybody; you have to do it in the Home Civil Service. because it gets rid of all sorts of other difficulties; but when you are dealing with a com- paratively small office like the Crown Agents' and with

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. R. L. ANtrobus, C.B.

work of very different kinds, it always seems to me that the best way is to select the officials who are required to do it."

3779. In the Crown Agents' Office now they have a staff of something about 200. The appointments annually, I suppose, would be a considerable number; so that there would be some difficulty in obtaining suitable candidates from personal knowledge of the Crown Agents themselves only 7-Do you think so? Out of that 200 a very large number, I suppose, are boys, and those I was not really thinking of; I do not know what is the best way to select them, and, I sup- pose, the way in which they are selected by the Civil Service Commissioners is probably as good as any other

way.

3780. For the lower section of their staff you think application to the Civil Service Commissioners would possibly be the better way - would rather not express any opinion; i had really not thought about That.

3781. As to the selection of the higher staff, you think the Crown Agents' personal knowledge and selection is the best course?-I think so.

3782. (Mr. Bailey.) Does that apply rather to the technical posts, or to all the higher posts?—I think the whole of the higher posts.

3783. You think a sufficient number of suitable candidates would come within the purview of the Crown Agents themselves-I should think they would. We have a great many people applying here for all sorts of appointments of the same kind, and it is quite easy for the Crown Agents to go to Oxford and Cambridge to the Appointments Beards there.

3784. We have already established obtaining candidates, and testing them in a prelimi nary way -For the Crown Agents?

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3785. No, but for the service generally by the Civil Service Commnissioners?-Do you mean that the Civil Service Commissioners select candidates not by open competitive examination?

3786. No, but they have a means of getting into touch with candidates; they have that niachinery in existence now. Under your suggestion, 1 take it, the Crown Agents would themselves have to start selecting machinery?—No, I should have thought they would have got into touch with men or with these Appoint- ments Boards at the Universities; in fact, I should have thought they would have done as the Secretary of State here does for a very large number of the appointments in the Crown Colonies.

3787. (Chairman.) What method would that be?— Keeping in touch with the Universities chiefly. A large number of young men, of course, apply here on their own account, and the names of many more are obtained through the Universities.

3788. And then when a vacancy natter of selection ?—Yes.

occurs it is a

3789, You would suggest that the Crown Agents should have an absolute right of selection in the same way to all the higher positions? Yes, I would not interfere with the discretion of the Crown Agents as to whom they should appoint. Of course, this goes back a long way. The theory of leaving the Crown Agents to appoint their own men absolutely was one that Sir Robert Meade and Lord Welby used to attach great importance to. Their idea all through was to throw as much responsibility as possible on the Crown Agents, and to clear the Secretary of State as much as possible from having any responsibility for them; but as I said in the first beginning, the Secretary of State cannot get rid of all responsibility, and he is ultimately responsible for everything they do.

3790. (Mr. Harris.) I think that idea arose out of the fear of the Treasury, that they might have a certain responsibility if the Secretary of State took too much, did it not?-Yes; I think that was at the root of it.

3791. (Mr. Leathes.) Your suggestion that the Crown Agents should apply to the Universities implies that the age of 22 or 23 would be a suitable age to enter such an office as the Crown Agents'. Do you not think it would be desirable to enter them at an earlier age? Perhaps it would.

159

[27 July 1908.

3792. More at the public school age?—Yes. I have not really thought very much about that; it does not come before us in the Coloural Othieu very much.

3703. It merely arose out of something you said with regard to the Appointments Boards of the Uni- versities?--I am quite prepared to agree that probably they would have to recruit younger men to a certain extent.

3704. (Chairman.) The next point here is that there has been an indication in certain quarters that the Crown Agents enjoy an almost absolute independence of control. What are your views upon that subject?- I do not think there is any ground for that opinion.

3795. To whom, then, would you hold that they are responsible?—To the Secretary of State.

3706. To no one else?—No, not really to anybody else. Their business is to carry out the orders of the Colonial Governments for stores, because it has bean definitely laid down that they are to do that without asking any questions; but if any question is raised as to whom they are responsible to, it is the Secretary of State. You know (1 have not got it here) there was a dispatch about three years ago in which it was laid down they were to comply with requisitions for stores without asking any questions.

3707. We have had that before us; but would you not hold they are responsible to any extent to those for whom they are acting-that is, the Crown Colo nies? I am not quite sure that I understand in what sense responsible. Their duty is to carry out the orders of the Colonies, subject to any general instructions that have been given to them by the Secretary of State. 3798. And in the event of their failing to carry out those orders what would be the method of bringing the matter to notice, or who would censure them, or other- wise?-The Colonial Government would bring the matter to the notice of the Secretary of State, and he would censure them.

3799. The proper course would be for the Colonial Government to communicate with the Secretary of State in the event of their orders not being satisfac torily executed, and not direct to the Crown Agents? -I think that the Colonial Government would cer- tainly complain direct to the Crown Agents, and pro- bably settle the matter, if it could, with them; but I thought you were referring to the ultimate responsi- bility to what would happen if the Crown Agents dclined to admit that they had made a mistake.

3800. That would be a matter for the arbitration of the Secretary of State, you hold 7-Yes.

3801. He rather is an arbitrator?--He is more than an arbitrator; the Secretary of State is the supreme authority.

3802. To an extent the Crown Agents are at the orders and under the direction of the Crown Colony Governments they are operating for ?--Yes; I think Sir Frank Swettenham put it very well in a dispatch he wrote which you have already had quoted to you- he said that they were not exactly agents, but, rather, an independent authority, prepared to carry out the orders of the Colonial Governments, with considerable limitations. Of course, I do not take it in the sense he meant it; but what I do think is that they are tho agents of the Colonies, but they carry out their orders subject to general instructions which are laid down by the Secretary of State.

3803. You have had a very long experience. What would be your opinion as to the advisable position they should occupy in relation to the Crown Colonies, as distinguished from the Secretary of State?—I do not think you could get to a better position than the one we have got to now, as the result of that inquiry (this is about stores, of course) which was held towards the end of Mr. Chamberlain's time here. There it was laid down, as the result of that inquiry, that they were to execute orders for stores without questioning them; but, of course, they execute those orders sub- ject to any general instructions which the Secretary of State has given.

3804. You would not, then, be an advocate for their being brought more closely, in touch with the Colonial Office, or more closely under the direction of the Colo-