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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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27 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. R. L. ANTROBUS, C.B.

Agents, and that really it is quite unnecessary to say to the Crown Agents: "You will not get any pensions unless there is this fund," because the Secretary of State, if the Crown Agents have been promised pen- sions, and if their staff have been promised pensions, would be bound to see that the Crown Colonies pro- vided the money, just as the Government here is bound to see that Parliament provides the money for our pensions.

3853. (afr, Harris.) Do you not think, dealing with the facts as they are (for the fund exists), it would save a great deal of trouble now to limit the fund at a certain point and declare it a public fund, in order that there might be no further question as to the pro- prietorship of it? Yes; I have not thought of it exactly in that way. I quite agree with what I under- stand is your feeling, and that is that the fund is a difficulty which we ought to get rid of if we could,

3851. You suggested just now the idea of putting an end to the fund and dividing it up amongst the Colo- nies. Would not that raise questions of almost in- superable difficulty-Yes, I think I said so.

3855. A great deal of the fund has arisen out of loans, and it would be almost impossible to determine now what portion of that really should go to a parti- cular Colony I quite agree.

3856. The calculation would be tremendous; do you not, therefore, think it would be far better to deal with the fund as a fact?-I was asked to whom the fund belonged, and my view is that is cannot belong to anybody else except the Crown Colonies; but I quite agree with you that the difficulties in the way of dividing it up again are insuperable.

3857. (Mr. Gibson.) Your view would be that the interest accruing from this fund, which is consider- able-something like £20,000 or £25,000 a year- should practically be put into the office fund as an asset to meet the expenditure of the year, and, there fore, pro rata, the contributions could be reduced?- Yes, I think that would be the reasonable way of doing it.

3858, (Sir Albert Spicer.) I take it that when a Crown Colony sets up to be a self-governing Colony it does not take any of this fund with it?-No.

3459. (Mr. Gibson.) It has practically been paid in the shape of a commission for work done, and, there- fore, the Crown Colony does not know that it has any. thing beinging to it, and is not likely to make any claim ?—No.

3860. (Chairman.) With regard to the method of contribution to the fund from which the Crown Agents are paid, it is by a percentage on the work done and a percentage on the loans, and it is suggested that it might be better that there should be a fixed contribu- tion for each Colony, based on the work done. Do you think that would be more desirable 7-That system is already in part in force. Every Colony pays a fixed annual sum for all the financial business other than that connected with loans.

3881. That, we understand, was more for the specific purpose of payment of salaries and pensions, and so forth -Yes, all that large class of business is paid for in that way already.

3862. The other class of business-of purchasing stores and floating of loans, etc., is paid for by a per- centage?—Yes.

33. The suggestion is that the entire support shall be by a direct contribution, which would be voted by the Legislature of the Crown Colony on its annual estimates. Do you think such a course would be desirable?-No. I do not; I think the tem is the fairest all round. The Colony which orders present sys- most stores pays the largest amount.

3844. (Mr. Gibson.) That suggested system would be very awkward, as it would tend to considerable fluc- tuations each year in the amount to be voted Yes.

3865. Take the question of going into new premises, and things of that sort; it is dividing the capital charge, so to speak?—Yes.

3668. (Chairman.) The point, then, is that the maintenance of the Crown Agents' office and staff en- tails a certain definite expenditure annually?—Yes.

3807. And the question is whether that would not Colony employing them than by the present system of be better met by a definite contribution from each contributions on a percentage basis, and where there is a surplus it is entirely passed over to this fund?- Your proposal would be to avoid having a surplus?

3887. To meet the actual expenditure by a definite grant from each colony employing their services.--I think, on the whole, the present arrangement is the best. The disturbing element has been the percentage on the loan business, I believe; that is what has brought in large sums to the Crown Agents.

3868. But you would deprecate any change; you think the present system is preferable?-I think th present system is the best.

3869. In that event, what is to happen if this fund goes on growing beyond the requirements altogether? Then, of course, either the percentage for loans or the percentage for stores could be reduced.

3870. By a reduction in the charges?-The annual contributions the Colonies make are small, probably considerably less than the value of the work done. Southern Nigeria and Northern Nigeria pay larg sums, because they have an enormous amount of sala- ries paid in this country; but I believe other Colonies pay very small sums.

3871. We then come to the question of the pensions of the Crown Agents. You told us that you believed that the scale of pensions for the Civil Service was one adopted under the instructions of the Secretary of State by the Crown Agents, but it has been put in evidence to the Committee that in many cases, that scale has been departed from, and much better terms given in the Crown Agents Office?-Yes. I have not been dealing with these things, but has that been done without the authority of the Secretary of State? Has not his authority been obtained for every pension in excess of the Home Civil Service rates?

3872. Yes, it has; but do you think it desirable that such a course should be pursued, or that they should be tied clearly by the rules of the Civil Service in the same way as the departments of the Civil Service are? -I think decidedly they should be tied by the same rules as the Civil Service.

3873. As regards pensions?-As regards pensions. 3974. And these special cases you consider should not be entertained-Not unless the circumstances were very special. I would not tie the Secretary of State's hands more than they are tied now, for in- stance, in the case of a Colony. He might, ander some very special circumstances, sanction something more being granted than the regulations allow ordi narily.

3875. But you would advocate the Civil Service system of pensions, and that to be adhered to strictly? To be strictly adhered to, except under very special circumstances to be decided by the Secretary of State.

3876. In that, of course, you would omit the ques- tion of technical staff, or would you omit the question of their pensions, or allow them as special cases?- No, I would treat them exactly in the same way. We do not make any distinction with regard to the tech- nical officers in the Colonies except that some of them have additions of years, and I suppose (but, of course, I have no experience) that is the same thing in the Home Civil Service.

877. (Mr. Gibson.) We have had that point recently, that after a certain date, except in the case of vested rights, the Treasury will not give an addi- tion of years now?-That is the modern theory of the Treasury I know, but still, as a matter of fact, there are a good many people serving with the right to additions.

3878. In cases where they have not got that right or in new appointments, they should come under the ordinary Civil Service conditions, just as they do in the technical departments of the Civil Service, the War Office, the 'Admiralty, and the India Office?- Yes.

3879. With regard to one point that Mr. Harris raised just now, as to making the fund a public fund under the Superannuation Act of 1892 are you aware

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. R. L. ANTROBUS, C.B.

that at present considerable difficulty arises in the pensioning of officers who pass between the Colonial Office and the Crown Agents with regard to the reckoning of their term of service in the Crown Agents?—Yes, it does.

380. If the Crown Agents' fund was constituted a public fund under the Act of 1892, such difficulty would disappear, would it not, their whole service being treated as continuous, and their period of ser- vice in the Crown Agents being assessed against the Crown Agents' funds?-Yes, I believe that is what would happen.

3881. That would be a distinct advantage; it would tend to elasticity and to the interchange of officials between, say, the Colonial Office and the Crown Agents, and if necessary other public departments? Yes, I quite agree as to that. I am not quite sure as to the law, whether under the Act of 1802 it would be so, but I think it ought to be amended to make it so, Perhaps I might just say that I have been chairman of an Inter-Departmental Pensions Committee lately, and we did not actually discuss the question of the Crown Agents; but we did discuss the question of offi- cers lent from the Home Service to go and serve in a foreign country under a foreign government, and I have always thought that the Crown Agents ought to be brought into line in the same way.

3882. When you say a foreign government, do you mean absolutely foreign-One case which

we had before us was that of an officer from the Foreign Office who went to serve in Egypt, and I think just in the same way, if a man goes from the Home Civil Service to the Crown Agents, the Imperial Government ought to pay the part of his pension earned by service in the Imperial service.

383. (Chairman.) One of the objections urged as against organising the staff of the Crown Agents on the ordinary Civil Service lines has been that they are subject to violent fluctuations in the work they have to do, and so forth. From your knowledge of them, do you think there is any valid objection of that sort?-I should not have thought so, as a gene ral rule. Of course, the violent fluctuations recently have been due to the South African War. Unless we have another South African War, or something of the same kind, I do not think there will be any such violent fluctuations again.

284. In your experience, that is the only case in which such an argument could be put forward?—Yes. 3885. (3fr. Gibson.) Even in that case, supposing their staff had been recruited through Civil Service channels, either from the Second Division or from some analogous position, there would have been no difficulty in absorbing that staff as a whole into the Civil Service ?-I do not know.

3886. The War Office took on

a couple of hundred extra hands during the war, and places have been found for them in other departments of the Civil Fervice; and that could have been done in the case of the Crown Agents also?-No doubt.

3887. (Chairman.) If they were dependent on the Civil Service, do you think the Civil Service would fully meet the requirements in the event of fluctua- tion? Yes. I had not thought of that point; but it seems to me that probably if they were connected with the Civil Service it would be easier to deal with fluctuations.

3888. It would be an advantage in that case, if there is anything in their argument, that they should be supplied from the Civil Service? That is how it seems to me, on the spur of the moment; I had not thought it out before.

4989. (Mr. Gibson.) If you take them out of the street you have to discharge them into the street?- Yes.

3890). (Chairman.) There is only one other point on these notes, and that is with regard to the liability of the Crown Agents in the case of error in the conduct of their business that is, liability to make good any loss sustained or excess of expenditure in- carred through any fault of theirs. What is your view there as

to their liability?-As the Crown € 21

163

[27 July 1908.

Agents are paid fixed salaries, and as they act under the instructions of the Secretary of State, I suppose there is no question of holding the Crown Agents per- sonally responsible.

3801. I do not think it is suggested that they should be personally responsible, but that their funds which they have accumulated should be responsible?— Yes; it is simply a question of the fund. Then you have this question: That fund, in my view, has been contributed by all the Colonies, and does not belong to the Crown Agents, and the Colonies are simply being paid out of moneys which they themselves pro-

vide.

392. Do you think that in the provision of those moneys in the first instance it was contemplated that a fund would be created to meet such cases ?—No, I do not think it was.

3893. It was not to any extent meant to form what might be called an insurance fund-No, I do not think so.

3894. Merely for the establishment and maintenance of the agency in the actual transaction of the work?- I think the fund was simply the excess which almost must pile up unless you are to have a deficit, on the working of the office, and that it was then increased in order to provide pensions.

3895. In your view, would it, having regard to the dimensions the fund has now reached, be reasonable to make that fund liable for any losses occurring from the work in the Crown Agents' office?—No, I do not think it is necessary, and I am not sure that it is desirable. There are not many cases in which there would be ground for coming on the fund, I think.

3896. (Mr. Bailey.) There was one, I think, was there not, in the case of the Jamaica Railway?—Yes; that is the case which has been very much argued and discussed. Personally, I am on the side of the Crown Agents there. I think they ought not to have been made to pay.

3897. (Chairman.) That of itself was not a case of loss, either; it was a case of excessive expenditure, for which the Colony actually obtained value; but more money than they wished was spent, and the balance had to be paid out of the Crown Agents' fund?—Yes, there was a blunder made.

3898. I will take a case of actual loss that might occur through the action of the Crown Agents. Do you think it would be reasonable to allow that to fall on the fund?-No, I do not think it would be; there must be mistakes sometimes, and I do not think the Colonies have any reason to expect that they will be guaranteed against mistakes.

3899. (Mr. Leathes.) Might it not be convenient that they should, in fact, guarantee each other-that is really what it comes to?-It might be, but I do not think it a very important point. I do not remem. ber cases in which any claim could have been made.

3900. (Mr. Gibson.) I think that the fact that this Jamaica case has been made such a mountain of tends to prove that the cases are extremely rare ?-I think so.

3901. In fact, we do not seem to have been able to discover any other case except the Jamaica one.

3902. (Mr. Harris.) I should like to put to you a case the Crown Agents have submitted to us, and to ask your view of that, if you would allow me. The Crown Agents altered a form which was sent to them for printing; they did not consult the Colonial Office and they found they were wrong. The Crown Agents ultimately apologised and paid £4 58, for the cost of a new supply? I know that case.

3903. What is your view of that-that they need not have apologised and need not have paid?-I think they were bound to apologise, and I think under those cir- cumstances it was just as well to pay.

3904. Where would you charge the £4 56. ?—I do not know.

3905. (Chairman.) There comes really the point, as to how this fund is to be regarded. regarded as to any extent a fund to meet such cases May it be of loss or error-would it be advisable to regard it in that light in any sense in your opinion?—I think it is unadvisable to do so.

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