CO885-(19-20) — Page 28

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

194

30 Oktober 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE :

Major J. F. H. CARMICHAEL.

4812. Do you not think there are other businesses just as varied?

4813. (Mr. Bailey,) Take your own branch of busi- ness, is not yours very varied?--Yes, but perhaps I am only wasting the Committee's time.

4814. (Sir Ralph Moor.) At the time of the placing of an order, whether on tender or estimate, is any regand had to the date of sailing of a vessel which might take those goods?-If there is any particular reason why we should ship at a certain time, say the

or

Colony says: "We must have these in October something like that, we then write to Freeland's and say: "Such and such tenders have been received, can you say whether any advantage would be gained by going to another firm or paying a little higher in order to get what the Colony wants?" but if it is just in the ordinary way, we take the lowest tender.

4815. You would not take into consideration the question of a freighting at the moment of giving the order?—No.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. H. W. L. NAYLOR, called and exurnined.

4816. (Chairman.) You are the Deputy Head of the Stores Department?--Yes.

4817. How long have you been in your present position --Between four and five years.

4818. How long have you been in the Crown Agents' Office 7-Eleven years

4819. Did you commence your business career there?--I was first of all in the Royal Marine Light Infantry, and I was invalided from the Service and joined the Crown Agents when I was 25 years of age. 4820. How did you come into the Crown Agents' Office-Through applying to Sir Montagu Ommanney for employment.

4821. You came direct from the infantry into this office. You had had no commercial experience before then?-No.

4822. What position were you appointed to when you came in 7-The same as if I had gone in the first place at seventeen from school; I started at £90 a year.

4823. What work were you doing?-Indent work. doing the ordinary routine work in the first place.

4824. Will you kindly tell us the work of your office?-The work of the general stores department is ordering.

1825. When does the process commence? What do you commence with? The order comes from the other side?--In the form of a letter or indent.

1826. How do you get it in your office-Through the registration department. It is sent to us put in a cover (they are generally called covers in the Crown Agents' Department). Each indent has its own jacket which receives a serial number, and when it has got that serial number it comes to us for action. We then see to the ordering of the stores and arrange for the shipment.

1827. Do you get the order in its original form or has it already been copied out before you get it?-It has not been copied out; we get it in its original form. Then we proceed with the ordering; the in- dents frequently have to be broken up considerably, and occasionally revised before the order can be placed, and, of course, they are checked against the particulars we have in the office in the way of pat- terns or standard specifications. We check the price, of course, after getting an estimate or tenders, and the order is placed, and we arrange for the shipment.

4828. The order is placed; it is sent to the various contractors. What have you to do with it after that? We will say it is made on November 1st for delivery on January 1st?-We see that delivery to the ship ping agents is made within a reasonable time of the due date.

4829. You send particulars at the same time as you make out the order, to Messrs. Freeland's ?—Yes. 4830. You give them particulars of what you have ordered and where you have ordered it from and the dates they are to be delivered?—Yes.

4381. Do you do anything between November 1st and January 1st-Nothing, unless early delivery is expecially required, in which case we enquire before the due date and report progress to the Colony.

4832. When January 1st comes what happens 7-On January 1st we should not start troubling about the order, because very frequently the shipment cannot

be made within a week or a fortnight of the time the things are due, but about a fortnight after the goods are due we begin.

1833. What would you do by way of beginuing?— We see if the goods have been shipped.

1834. But you know the goods have not been shipped because you have not got the bill of lading?— That is not my department.

uut.

4835. Whom do you communicate with? On January 14th whom do you communicate with first?-- We find the cover, as we call it, and we can see by the cover whether the goods have been shipped or If they have not been shipped we apply to the contractor and ask why he has allowed these things to become overdue. Then we get his explanation or some reason or another for the delay, and we refer the matter then to the shipping agents and ask them to see what they can do to hurry the goods forward in time for the next opportunity for shipment.

1836. Do you have only one communication with tie contractor!--Not necessarily; if the shipment is still further delayed we again apply to the con- tractor. We do that periodically.

4837. When would you do it again after the 14th January if you got your reply on the 16th -That would be according to the dates when ships sailed tak- ing cargo to the port for which the goods were in- tended.

4838. Do you know when that ship is going, because, of course, Messrs. Freeland cannot surely engage freight until they know when those goods are going to be ready-1 take it they cannot.

1839. They cannot do anything until they know; in the meantime, I take it, they have been in com munication?-It is our business with the contractor to see that he has the goods delivered somewhere within a reasonable time of the due date; we do not go beyond that, but if they have not been delivered, say, within a fortnight of the due date we do not put the matter aside entirely then; we put a forward entry in the diary and look it up again later on.

4840. Until you get the goods delivered. Have you finished your work in connection with that order then? --When the goods have been delivered and shipped our work is practically finished.

4841. You have nothing to do with the corre spondence with the Colony-Yes, but not the trans- mission of shipping documents; any question that may arise in connection with the order we take up. It a firm had not invoiced according to the contract we would go into that matter with them.

4842. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you not advise the Colony when you have placed the order?--Yes, the General Stores Department advises the Colony.

4843. (Chairman.) You say you would conduct that correspondence?—Yes.

1844. That would go out through which office- through your office?-Through the General Stores.

4845. Who is your chief?-Mr. Herbert F. Smith. 1848. Would any of that correspondence go up to the Crown Agents-If the correspondence required it signed letter would go through a Crown Agent for final approval, generally Mr. Mercer, but there are several forms of report which are not signed by a Crown Agent.

A

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. H. W. L. NAYLOR.

with

4847. And the matters with regard to the actual shipping you have nothing to do with 7--No, the details of obtaining freight and so forth we know nothing of.

4848. Do Messrs. Freeland settle entirely what vessel shall be chosen and when it shall go?-Occasionally we give special instructions, as for example when a Colony is not in weekly communication England; then the practice is to give the contractors and Freeland's the name or the date of 'sailing of the ship by which the goods are to go; sometimes, as the result of negotiations conducted with Colonies as to the lines by which goods should be shipped (especially in the case of the East African Colonies), there are standing instructions; for instance, in the case of East Africa, such negotiations have led to goods being almost invariably shipped by the British India Line. Freeland's have those instructions, and we repeat them frequently in case they are overlooked. We generally repeat them whenever an order is given for East Africa.

4849. (Mr. Bailey.) You would advise Freeland's when you give the order, in fact?—Yes.

4850. That forms a distinct clerical operation-the advice to Messrs. Freeland?-That is so.

4851. It is not merely a copy of the order?-No, it is really a sort of précis of the order, the value and the nature of the goods and the name of the firm, the date due, the port for which we have accepted shipment, and the approximate value.

4852. Taking them all together these advices to Messrs. Freeland give a considerable amount of work to your department ?-Decidedly.

4858. Will you kindly explain what it is exactly which Messrs. Freeland do in the way of hurrying up the contractors or looking after them as distinct from your efforts in the same direction?-They write to the firm towards the due date and ask them, I think (I am not quite sure as to the form), how long it will be before the goods are ready.

4854. That is very apparent. Now what do you do in the same way -We, as I said before, wait for about a fortnight after the due date, and then we write to the firm.

4855. Do you do nothing until then?—No.

4856. Meantime there are two communications being made to the contractor, one from you and one from Messrs. Freeland, with much the same object?-With very much the same object.

4857. (Mr. Harris.) Can you give us an idea of the general average amount of delay that arises out of the system of not reminding a firm until after the date for delivery of the contract is up?--I think there is practically no delay on this account.

your

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4858. That is to say you can generally rely upon contractors to deliver to time ?-A matter of fact, there is considerable delay, especially in some classes of goods. We have been talking now about where we deal direct with Messrs. Freeland, but in the general stores department there is also a class of goods which is invariably delivered to packers in London, and then the communications take place between Messrs. Hayter and Hayter and the shipping agents instead of between the suppliers and the ship- ping agents.

4859. And not with you 1-No. Not as regards for- warding for shipment. We watch those contracts very mach more closely than the others. We have a system by which their contractor's deliveries are entered up in the office in connection with inspection, and we know the position of those contracts daily absolutely up to the date.

4800. Do you not find that a great advantage as compared with your general ignorance of what is going on-Distinctly; but it is not worth it with the great mass of the work.

4861. Why - really involves a tremendous lot of labour. We only find it necessary to do that with clothing, textiles, equipment. and military stores. which we find it necessary to have packed by our own packers.

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195

[30 October 1908.

4862. To extend it you would want a larger depart- ment?-Distinctly very much larger.

4863. How many more clerks, do you think?-That is a difficult question.

4884. Half as many again as you have?-I should. think approximately half as many again

4865. (Chairman.) What goods are these you send to Hayter and Hayter ?-Clothing, textile, and military equipment. Generally they may be classed as goods for colonial forces.

4866. Is it impossible to have these goods contacted for f.o.b. 7-Oh, no, but it has generally been locked upon that where forces are concerned the control of the contract is of greater importance than in the ordinary way with miscellaneous stores.

1867. (Mr. Bailey.) Could they not be inspected at the place of manufacture and packed there ?-They could be.

1868. Has that system boen tried and abandoned?— Only on occasions in special cases has it been tried.

4869. (Chairman.) You collect these goods at Messrs. Hayter and Hayter's and then inspect them there?—

Yes.

80.

4870. And pack them there?—Yes.

4871. And send them forward from there?-That is 4872. Of course, Hayter and Hayter's is an inland warehouse, not

on a wharf? It is in Upper Thames Street.

1873. How long have you carried out that practice? -I cannot say how long?

4874. Before your time?-Before my time. 4875. Is it a very large quantity of goods that goes through them?—A considerable quantity.

4876. And pretty regularly?—Almost continuously. 4877. Have you ever tried to have any of those goods shipped direct?-We have had them shipped direct on occasions.

1878. Has it been satisfactory-On one such occa- sion I remember there was complaint of the packing. That is one of the largest cases. I remember when

we did not go to Hayter and Hayter.

4879. But you say Hayter and Hayter have had the work much longer than your time?—Much longer thau I can remember.

4880. What would their account amount to per month ?—I could not say without reference.

4881. Cannot you recollect at all? Would it amount to £400 or £500 a month that you pay them? -I have so little to do with the payments that I can-

not answer.

4882. Who checks their invoices?-One part of the shipping department; there is the checking depart- ment and the shipping department combined.

4883. But they have not given the order?—No. 4884. How can they check that which they have not ordered ?-They check against the tenders; our papers are accessible to the checking department.

4885. Surely, if you have given the order, it should be in your department that that should be checked ?— That is not the system.

4886. So that all those goods go, but you really do not know what you are paying Hayter and Hayter. Does it amount to 400 or 500 bales a year, a month, or six months?-I could find out from the records of my own department, but I do not feel that I could give you any valuable statement right off.

4887. I would be glad if you could give our secre- tary those items, because it is the first time we have heard of Hayter and Hayter?-I will be pleased to do so.

4888. You give Hayter and Hayter orders how they are to be packed, in what size of bales ?—Yes.

4889, And from there they are sent to the docks ?-- Yes.

4890. (Mr. Bailey.) Surely they must be delivered packed in some form?—Yes.

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