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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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196

30 October 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

would be packed in bales and some in cases?— Yes.

Mr. H. W. L. NAYLOR.

4891. (Chairman.) And they are export ?—Yes.

repacked again for

4892. I would like you to furnish the secretary with the average number of bales or cases; some of those

Yes.

The witness withdrew.

4899. And about what you pay them a month ?-

(Adjourned.)

• NOTE BY SECRETARY-Mr. Naylor subsequently furnished the following figures for Mesars. Hayter and Hayter's business with the Crown Agents:- Average number of packages dealt with, 670 a month. Average payments for work done, #457 A month.

THIRD DAY,

Monday, 16th November, 1908,

At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.

PLEMENT:

SIR ALBERT SPICER, BART., M.P. (Chairman).

Sir RALPH Moon, K.O.M.G.

R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., I.S.0.

Mr. H. G. HATTER, called and examined.

4894. (Chairman.) You have been good enough to express your willingness to assist the Committee in connection with your business relations with the Crown Agents. We have received a copy of your letter," signed by yourselves, dated 4th November?-Yes, that is the last.

4505. In which you finish by saying that you are quito prepared to give evidence before the Committee if so desired, and the Sub-Committee are extremely obliged to you for being willing to come. May I ask how long your firm has been in existence 7-I cannot exactly tell you, but I know that we packed clothing for the Army at Prestonpaus, which was in 1745.

4896. Of whom does your firm consist--Of myself and my brother.

4897. How long have you had business relations with the Crown Agents?-I think since 1858 or 1859, I cannot say exactly.

4898. Who had done their business before that time I do not think they were in existence much before then.

4899. You think they started then?-They had a small office at the Adelphi at that time, I think; Sir Penrose Julyan was Crown Agent at the time.

4900. Had you any connection with them in any way then?-Not then. Our connection was with the War Office before that.

1901. You packed for the War Office? We packed for the War Office for a short time, but before that the Committee are perhaps aware that the colonels of the regiments supplied the clothing; they were paid so much, and they provided the clothing and the accoutrements for the regiments out of what were called "off-reckonings," and we were employed then by the colonels acting through the agents, Messrs. Cox and Co.. and sundry other Army agents. That was the way in which the Army was clothed. time of the Crimean War, when we were employed

Appendix X11.

At the

A. J. HARDING (Secretary).

very largely indeed, not only by them but by the Tower, which broke down at the time of the Crimean War, we were packing blankets and greatcoats all day long in every press in London that we could lay hands on, and I think we helped them a great deal then. Then the system was inquired into altogether, and it was found not to be such as it ought to be. As everybody knows, the Crimean War was rather a failure as regards provisions, and it was decided under Lord Panmure that a Clothing Department should be instituted also he had a nephew to put in at the head of it. The Department was so instituted, and large premises at Pimlico were taken, where they not only collected and inspected and packed the goods but made them in a large factory, and where they have a very large business. You will understand that the clothing for the whole of the Army is a very large business. They buy the cloth and have cutting machines; they make it up, and, in fact, the whole thing is done at Pimlico. That was instituted about 1857 or 1868, just after the Mutiny. Then we lost that business. Lord Panmure wrote us a very nice letter, but we lost the business.

4902. (Mr. Bailey.) Whose business the Army business?—Yes, the Army business. Then shortly after that they took our partner, Mr. Howell, as Director of Contracts and they took several of dur staff off as well.

4903. (Chairman.) They relieved you in that way?— They relieved us in that way so far as it went. They did not know their business and we were obliged to teach them. Shortly afterwards we heard of the Crown Agents' business. We interviewed Sir Penrose Julyan (Mr. Julyan as he then was), and that was the beginning of our relations with them.

4904. And you have had their business ever since?--- We have had it ever since.

1905. Have you been subject to tenders for com petition from time to time? No, we have not.

4006. You have grown up with the Office?—Yes.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. H. G. HATTER.

4907. And you have done all the warehousing that was necessary in London, I gather?—Yes.

4908. And the packing?—Yes, and a good deal more than that, as you will gather from our letter. We have managed the business for the Crown Agents.

4909. That is to say, you have managed the ware- housing business, which includes receiving the goods, providing accommodation for inspectors, then sorting the goods and packing them 7-Yes, sorting the goods and sizing them for the inspectors. I need not go over the details.

4910. Have you at various times been given definite instructions as to how those goods are to be packed,

or is that left to your discretion ?-They are standing orders mostly. The Crown Agents have nothing to do with how they are packed. If I may explain, a certain proportion of the clothing-a large proportion, at any rate is destined for service in the interior of Africa, for instance, and the bales, cases or packages in which they are packed have to be limited in weight to 56 lbe. to go on a man's back to walk up the country with, and it is entirely left to us to make the packages not more than 56 lbs., and as near 58 lbs. as we can, per bale. On the one hand they do not want to pay more for the porterage than they can help, and, on the other hand, if they were too heavy the porters would strike; consequently it is left to us entirely. I think this (handing in a paper) will throw some light upon it-this is an extreme case.

4911. Have you nearly always some business going on? Is there nearly always some packing in hand for the Crown Agents?—No, I wish there were.

I may say that almost always some papers come down in the morning, but the quantity is very fluctuating indeed. 4912. (Mr. Bailey.) Has it fallen off of late years?— No, not of late years; on the contrary, last year was what we call a good year. This year has fallen off considerably.

4918. (Chairman.) You only do the work, I under- stand, which has to be sorted and inspected in London. You would not, for instance, do the work when the goods are packed at the factories?—No.

4914. You only do that which must come to London and be inspected here?—Yes.

4915. And is that work which is mainly produced in London? No, not at all. I understand that the textile goods for the most part, except in very excep tional cases, are packed by us from whatever part of the country they come, even from Ireland.

In

4916. Because it is easier to inspect them, or what is the reason?--I think there are various reasons. the first place, because they would have to send an inspector down to whatever part of the country it was to examine them, and then, secondly, without making any reflection on the inspectors, whom I believe to be perfectly respectable men, it is not a good thing that the inspector should inspect them under the roof of the contractor. Thirdly, there is no absolute assurance that the rejected goods would not go forward in cases where they were packed by the contractors, and perhaps I ought to have put first that we may have orders from half-a-dozen different contractors, and the goods will have to be mixed in packages. Some things will belong to each other although they are bought from different makers.

4917. Who decides what orders are to come to you for packing and what are to be done by the various contractors?-The Crown Agents, but I should say that it is rather uncertain; for instance, machinery naturally would not come to us.

4918. You have mostly the textiles?—Yes. 4919. And all the clothing-Yes, and boots. 4920. Is there any clothing that you do not have?- Not that I am aware of.

4921. Would you have all the textiles-I should not think quite all.

4922. For instance, do you have any cotton goods that are used simply for barter 7--No, nothing of that.

We know

4923. So that if the Crown Agents do buy any goods for barter they would not come to you to be packed 7---No.

197

[16 November 1908.

4924. What is the amount of business that you have done with them during the last five or ten years? -A good year we consider about £6,000. In the five years ending December, 1907, the total charge was £27,765.

4025. Between £5,000 and £6,000 a year?-That is so, but owing to the withdrawal from the Crown Agents of the work of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, including the Central South African Railways' work, this average will, I fear, be very largely reduced in future. The effect of this is already felt, and the charge for packing to the end of October is less by £1,150 than that for 1907 to the same date. 4820. I notice that your invoices contain no measure- ments?-That is so.

4927. Because with the charges for your bales you include the charges for warehousing --We include all the charges.

4928. But I gather from your letter that you do in addition receive some rent-£400?—That is for stor-

ing bales. It was decided a few years ago that it would be desirable to keep certain stores ready packed for transmission in case of a sudden outbreak-that applies only to East and West Africa-for what are known as the West African Field Force and the King's African Rifles. It was decided to keep a store

of goods ready packed, in order to avoid having to wait six or eight or ten weeks for supplies to go forward when there was a sudden outbreak and to enable annual requirements to be met promptly. In order that they might be ready to be shipped at once, it was necessary to store these bales permanently.

4830. Where are they stored? Have you a floor set apart for them?-We have a portion of our warehouse, or rather a portion of our two warehouses, appro priated to this store, and a rent is charged for that Accommodation and also for the management of the store, which is an extremely elaborate matter; you would hardly believe how elaborate it is.

4930. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you periodically overlook this store? We have to give an account every month of exactly what is in store and what has gone out, and not only that, but we are expected to keep a watch over the store to see that it is in proper condi- tion. That is to say, if we are short-if we have not got enough blankets, for instance, and there ought to be more blankets there we send up to the Crown Agents and suggest to them what to order. 4931. Do you absolutely pull down and overhaul it to see that there is no moth -There & package can be no moth.

4932. Are they packed in air-tight cases?—They are packed in canvas and tarpaulin-London tarpaulin- not the stuff that passes under the name of tärpaulin at Manchester.

4933. (Chairman.) Do you get any extra charge apart from the rent?

Is there anything else besides your charge for inspection and packing and the £400 for rent No. The inspectors, you understand, are quite independent of us.

4934. I only wanted to know whether you charged anything else to the Crown Agents apart from your ordinary charges for packing and your £400 rent?- No, nothing whatever, except, of course, cartage to the docks and out-of-pocket expenses,

4935. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you cart to the docks in your own vans 7-We contract for it.

4936. (Chairman.) You said, I think, in an earlier part of this conversation that you did really the management? That is so.

4937. You meant in that the various things that I went through, I take it? Yes.

4988. Is there any other point that you would like to supplement in that statement?" Management" is a very large word, you know; it includes a good deal. 4939. I thought possibly I might have made a mis- take in going through the items instead of leaving you to go through them. Would you like just to mention what you consider is included in that word "management," so far as your expenses are verned 1-I think that information is pretty well given in the letter.

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