CO885-(19-20) — Page 27

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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192

30 October 1908.

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Major J. F. H. CARMICHAEL

4742. And you allow anything up to ten days for the shipping papers to be in before you cominuni. cate?—Yes.

4743. Do you usually have to look up your diary, or do you hear first, perhaps, from Freeland's that the goods are late?-The diary is the first intimation. If it is a small order they are only given two or three days; if it is a big order we give up to ten days,

4744. Freeland's would not communicate with you at once when from your shipping order they saw that goods were Inte?--They do not now; they used to, but as I say, since we have started this diary system we have told them it is unnecessary and that we should know ourselves.

4745. Then, they would assume when goods were late that you were taking action ?—Well, what they very often do is, if they hear nothing from us, if there has been a slip or anything of that kind, they communicate, but as a rule the reminder is sent to them with a note before they ever say anything to us. 4746. You send to Freeland's at the time you send to the suppliers ?--The answer goes to Freeland's it there is anything to interest them.

4747. That might be a good many days after the date of delivery --Not very many; the answers gener ally come back the next day.

1718. Are the papers from Freeland's, the bills of lading, sent in to your shipping department or to your office?—To the shipping department of the office. 4719. Is the receipt of those papers in the shipping department the first that that department has heard of the transaction at all?-Oh!"ho.

475. Is the receipt of the papers from Freeland's by your shipping department the first your shipping department has heard of the matter at all?-I sup- pose it is.

4761. They are put in motion entirely by Free- land's-They are not a shipping department.

4752. It is a checking and paper forwarding depart- meut, practically?—Yes.

4753. That is the first they have heard of it-Yes, I will not be absolutely certain that is correct, but we will assume that is the first.

4754. On receipt of those invoices and bills of lad- ing they check them and forward them?—Yes.

4755. On receipt of them, I understand from you, they have to communicate with your department in order to endorse your cover?-No. With regard to the cover, the first few columns are filled in by my department, and then when the order is placed the cover lives in the shipping department unless I want it for any particular purpose.

4756. That is the very point I wanted to arrive at ; the cover lives in your Shipping Department ?-Unless I happen to send for it.

4767. Then as a matter of fact immediately the order is placed Freeland's are informed, and your Shipping Department is also informed if the cover goes to them?-It only lives there, because your see we do not want it any more, and our covers accumulate so fast that for convenience sake the cover placed in the Shipping Department remains there until the bills of lading come in.

4758. (Mr. Harris.) But nobody takes any notice of it? There is no object in it; what are you to do with it? We have it entered up in the diary, and every precaution has been taken.

4759. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Every department that has to take a hand in the transaction wants to be informed of the work it has to do as early as possible, and you note it in your diary as your record?--Yes.

4760. You are finished with your cover when the order is sent to Freeland's and it goes to the Shipping Department; surely they should take some notice of it-Why do you want to do it all over again?

4761. I do not want to do it, but I only want to know when they receive the notification?-They get the bills of lading from Freeland's; they go to the cover and enter up the fact that the invoices and bills of lading have come in.

4762. The cover being in their possession and having been sent on from you?-Yes. When my diary date

comas I send for the cover. Nobody does the work twice, you see.

4763. (Mr. Bailey.) They are not supposed in the Shipping Department to do anything with this cover even to look at it at that stage?-There is no necessity for it.

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4764. It is simply there as a repository 7-Yes. 4785. (Chairman.) Does the local inspector have a copy of the orders sent to him?—No, he has a copy of the tender without the prices sent to him.

4760. That is practically the same; he has the full particulars; directly the tender is accepted he has that tender went to him?-Before the order is placed, directly the tender is accepted three copies are made on a typewriter and two of those go to the Chief Inspect- ing Engineer, one is priced and the other is not, and the non-priced one goes to the local inspector.

4767. that the local inspector knows exactly what

is ordered ?—Yes, but not the price of it.

4768. He knows when it should be ready, of course; everything is on that 7-Yes, everything is on it.

4769. (Mr. Bailey.) There is one small matter which you may be able to clear up for us-quite a matter of office routine. 1 understood you to say that you advised the Colonial Governments that shipments had taken place or were about to take place. Did I understand that correctly?-There is so much detail I cannot remember it all. I must tell you another thing that happens. Directly the order is placed with the same mail as the order is placed we send to the Colony a form saying such and such things have been ordered, and are due for delivery in so many days. That is made out when the order is made out."

4770. Why I ask is because the section head of the shipping department told us that his work was just advising all the Governments of the shipments that were to take place?-He means that he tells them when the bills of lading are forwarded.

4771. That work would not fall on Freeland's?- No. The Shipping Department send on the invoices and the bills of lading when the contract is completed, but directly the order is placed a form goes out from the Works Department to the Colony, telling them that such and such orders have been placed, referring to the particular indent and the item number, and giving the prices.

4772. The next communication, of course, would be the forwarding of the bills of lading?-Yes, unless there was a delay, in which case we send a notifica

tion. We also have another form. If an indent comes in, and we vary it in any way on anybody's advice, the consulting engineer or otherwise, we have a variation form to say: "You have asked for such and such things, but we are sending you such and such other things."

4773. (('hairman.) Your Shipping Department is really a receiving office for the documents frorn Messrs. Freeland's and contractors and sending them out-That is all it is.

4774. They have nothing to do with shipping?-No, and the less they have to do with it the better.

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I want that department for is for the bills of lading to come into the office somewhere so that I may know that the goods are shipped, and all they do is that they pass the documents on to the Colony and mark upon my cover that the invoices are in, and then,' of course, eventually the cover is not closed until the payment has been made.

4775. Whose duty is it to send out these invoices and the bills of lading?-That is what we call the Shipping Department.

4776. Therefore the clerks who send the invoices and the documents practically have nothing whatever to do with the execution of the order of shipping?- Nothing.

4777. Whose duty is it to send out, as may be neces sary from time to time, a covering letter with ex- planations --Mine.

4778. Where do you get your information from I am afraid I am wrong. What is the letter to be about?

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Major J. F. H. CARMICHAEL.

4779. I cannot tell, but in the execution of that order different things may have turned up?-Then I de all that.

4780, (Mr. Bailey.) In what you mentioned just now the letter of variations, I take it? That letter of variations is only for small things. If there is any large variation I write a special letter.

4781. (Chairman.) When you do not write the letter for comparatively small things, who would do that?— We do all the writing; the Shipping Department does nothing of the writing.

4782. I understand the Shipping Department, but when you say "we" what do you mean?-My depart-

ment.

4783. You hold yourself responsible for writing about all the details of the orders that go through your department ?--Entirely.

4784. That is a pretty big order?—Yes, I am there to take the blame.

4785. But I take it you would get the information from those under you ?-Quite so.

4786. So that you would not expect them to write you a memorandum first of all and bring it to you for your approval?-You do not think I write all the letters? When I say "I" I mean my department.

4787. What I want to know is whose duty it is in your department to write these explanatory letters?— The heads of the sections,

4788. Who put the matter in hand?—Yes.

4789. And who have to conduct any correspondence that may be necessary with the contractors?—Yes. The letters all go through me, and are initialled by me or my deputy.

4790. (Mr. Harris.) You have indicated that you are anxious as to the accurate shipment of the goods for which you are responsible. I should like to clear ap a little further that question of the touch with the 'firms through the inspectors, because on your evidence, for two months we will say, and it may be a longer period apart from the inspectors you have lost touch with the order altogether, and that must be a fruitful source of the delays which you anxious to avoid in the shipment!-I do not quite know what your question is.

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4791. You lay great stress on the diary?—I do not lay great stress; my great stress is on my local in- spector. The other is only a machine.

4792. You have laid great stress, if you will allow me to say so, on the diary, and you also said you liked to avoid as far as possible having to explain to a Colony that there has been delay?—Yes,

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4793. I do want to draw this out of you: machine, meaning the diary, is merely a fruitful source of delay, because it only brings up the matter after it is too late?—Yes, but it is an important link in the system.

4794. I think it would be well if you would either admit to the Sub-Committee that you have lost touch altogether or explain to us how you keep touch ?- The local inspector has all the information that is required; he knows when the contract is due, he knows how much work ought to be done; say a con. tract takes three months, he knows that in a month so much ought to be done, and if it is not done he communicates with the chief inspecting engineer under whom he is directly.

4795. Is he under you?-No, we are collateral de- partments side by side. He at once lets us know.

4796. Is not that a drawback, supposing you are responsible for that order, is it not curious that the chief inspecting engineer who is not immediately in touch with you--He is immediately in touch with me.

4796. It is clearly his duty to come to you and Bay "There is a delay here "f-Yen, or there is likely to be delay.

4797. Does that happen from time to time?—Yes. We live in rooms side by side, and there is a little window above our heads which he pulls aside and

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193

[30 October 1908.

says "Look here, you will be getting into trouble about this if you do not look out."

4798. Really, to get the full effect of your evidence you do not lay so much stress upon that diary as you did at first-No, that diary is nothing really, ex- cept a machine; it is a link, so to speak, it links ap every thing. With the diary the reminder goes out and it comes back through the inspection Department and everybody is kept in touch.

4799. Do you mind explaining the carious phrase you used just now-"With our machine nothing would be done." It appears to me that a machine does nothing is a very unfortunate machine?—I do not know what machine you are referring to.

4800. In connection with taking care that the ship- ping was done promptly, you say it must be in the hands of Freeland's, and "With our machine nothing would be done," I do not understand how your machine should be such a complete failure?—I did

not mean that; our machine keeps the thing all linked up, but the details as to when they can get good freight, or when it is advisable for them to call for freight, and that sort of thing, must be done by Freeland's. We could not possibly do that with our machine.

4801. Do you not think if the machine were so constituted that you had the experience, or a real Shipping Department close to your hand, you would get on very much faster-No, for this reason, that we could not possibly have it anywhere near us. 4802. Why? Because it must be in the City. 4809. Why?-I do not see how you could have it anywhere else; all the shipping is done in the City.

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4804. You are not aware that one or two of the most extensive shipping departments are not in the City-No, certainly I was not aware of that. think myself that it would be the greatest mistake the Crown Agents could make to take the shipping into their own hands.

4805. Could you give a detailed reason for that?- To begin with, it is a very expert business, and you would have to have very expert people in the office. Mind you, they would be paid by the Crown Agents; they would be the Crown Agents' servants, and yet the Crown Agents would be absolutely in their hands. 4806. Why in their hands any more than in yours? -My own chief, Major Cameron, is an engineer, and he knows perfectly well that he knows just as much as I do about it.

4807. I venture to say that the head of a good firm knows a great deal about his shipping, and knows what is going on in shipping quarters?-I am afraid I am an engineer and I cannot give evidence on those points.

4808. (Chairman.) I suppose, as matter of fact, you have really never inquired as to whether modern methods have not included a shipping department? -I can only tell you that this question has been mooted in the Crown Agents' Office before, and, look- ing at it personally, I have always thought to myself, "If they do do this, I at any rate would be very sorry as far as my department is concerned," because we get a great deal of technical advice-I do not quite know how to put it, but we get a great deal of work done for us by our shipping agents practically for nothing.

4809. Do you not think it is possible, just as you have brought in this system of local inspection and have engineers to advise you, you might have brought in an expert in the shipping?-I do not for a moment say it is impossible, but, as I say--

4810. How long is it since you inquired into this question?—I have only talked it over.

4811. Have you ever made inquiries amongst the big commercial houses and the big shipping houses as to what they are doing, the people who are doing ex- actly the same sort of business as you are, only, of course, unfortunately for them, not having tied cus tomers but open customers, whom they get in com- petition. --Really, what I think about it is that the work is so frightfully varied.

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