CO885-(19-20) — Page 20

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

ཟ། །། ། mmimim C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

182

27 October 1908]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE :

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

may know that there are delicate articles on board and take the proper steps on arrival.

4977. How often do those delicate articles occur?— There are any amount of them, earthenware pipes, meteorological and other instruments, billiard table, slates, mortuary slaten, and every conceivable thing' practically is shipped.

4378. By the report that the Crown Agents send in there are something like 15,000 advices in all; 15 books are used entirely, and 1,000 pages are contained in each. Is that about the number of consignments? -I think we gave it in a letter to the Crown Agents. Are you not quoting from a report as to the Crown Agents' own office?

1379. The bills of lading are some 10,000 odd up to July? I think you are quoting from the Crown Agents' Office report.

1380. Yes, I am, but this is information, I take it, given to them by you?-No. We are frequently getting goods delivered at the docks damaged, so that unless we have our people down there to notice them they get put on board the steamer and shipped. A complaint comes from the Colony, and nobody would know the cause of the damage.

4381. Then with regard to your charges, how long have these charges been going on upon this basis?--- For some considerable time, but they are always being altered.

4342. They are altered under what circumstances?— For instance, if there is a railway under construction, and there are large parcels going, we never think of charging the amount in our scale. The Crown Agents expect us always to do that.

1383. Of course, many of these charges were fixed before you were there?--Before I was a partner.

4384. What I want a little bit to get at if I can is this was there any principle decided upon in the building up of these prices 7-The principle was that we should charge on a tonnage rate.

4845. But you do not do that quite; I notice a great many of these are so much a package and so much a cank; there is only coal and coke charged otherwise? Suppose you had a bill of lading for one case, and you charged on a tonnage rate, it would be absolutely nothing.

4386. I only put that question because you said it was built up on a tonnage rate?—It is on a tonnage rate, practically, the bulk of it.

4387, I see where you get that from; it is a tonnage rate; not a percentage on the freight?—Yes.

4388. (Mr. Bailey.) And for any package you get a minimum of 1s. 3d. ?--Yes; very often that would go in expenses.

4389. (Chairman.) Has it ever been suggested that you should practically be an office of the Crown Agents 7-Not to my knowledge.

4390. It has never been hinted at ?--No.

4391. That the time would come when it should all be taken into the Crown Agents' Office?—I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for the Crown Agents to work it.

1302. As a matter of fact is it not being done mainly nowadays by most export firms?—Yes, but they have only got one particular line of business mostly, whereas the Crown Agents have to deal with every branch of business for, I think, 60 Colonies and Protectorates.

4393. But supposing the Crown Agents were just to start a shipping business and build it up themselves, and take some of you gentlemen in as part of their staff?—I do not think they would find that economi- cal.

4394. Why not? Because they would have to have, a large staff.

4305. Never mind; it is just a question whether they should pay salaries rather than that you should draw your income?—Yes, but we take the risk.

4396. What risk?—If we are doing a small business we get a small pay.

4397. That would be the same; there is elasticity in the staff employed 7-If the Crown Agents had s Government Office in the City you would find that would be a very expensive business.

4308. Why would it be more expensive? I can quite understand at the present moment they have not got the knowledge, but they might determine to start a shipping office and do it all themselves. Has that ever been thought of?-I suppose it has been thought of, and it is not considered that it would be economical, to do it.

4999. Why does it seem to you that it would not be economical?-We consider we work our office in a very economical manner, but our actual expenses are 65 to 70 per cent. on the receipts.

4400. Do you not think the Crown Agents work theirs economically?—I would not say they do not for a moment, but if they have to take a large office in the City and employ a large staff-

4401. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Why is it necessary to have an office in the City ?-Because you must be in touch with all the shipping companies.

4402, (Chairman.) A room would do for that. Of course, you know, it is a question of supply and demand if there are ships going empty, they come and look after you; if there are ships going full, you have to go and look after them?—Yes; but the Crown Agents have to do with such places that you have to induce steamers to call there.

4403. That could be done as easily from Whitehall Gardens as from the City ?--I think not.

4404. In these days of telephones?—I do not think it would be possible, with the varied business the Crown Agents have, to work it from their office.

4405. You do for the Crown Agents very much more of the detail work?-We do an enormous amount.

4406. And, personally, just as an ordinary business man, I say it is a great weakness on the part of the Crown Agents that they let you do that, because they do not keep sufficiently in touch as regards the in- formation with all these different Crown Colonies. You have more information than they have?—I think you must have misunderstood me; the Crown Agents are always in communication with the Colonies.

4407. I know they are.-We have never anything whatever to do with the Colonies.

4408. I know you have not, but at the same time you du a lot of that detail work which means getting a good deal of information; directly the Crown Agents have settled who is to be the contractor they do not take really any more trouble about it; they leave it to you ---They leave the bulk of the work to us.

4409. (Mr. Harris.) I should like to clear up a point which came out before the Chairman came into the room, as to which I think your answers appear to be inconsistent. I wanted to make out whether the Crown Agents when they had given the shipping order kept worrying your firm: Are you ready?"

"Is that going to be ready" and so forth. I under stood from you that they did, but afterwards I under- stood you to say that they did not. What are the facts? I want to know whether the Crown Agents, after having sent the shipping order down to you, keep watch upon it, and say: "Are those goods going to be ready alongside the steamer by such and such a date"?--If there is any particularly urgent order they do.

4410. But in the ordinary way they do not?-In the ordinary way they leave it in our hands. Urgent orders which any particular colony is anxious to have out expeditiously are watched by the Crown Agents' Office.

4411. I misunderstood you, really, as saying that you were being constantly worried by the Crown Agents? There are so many urgent orders now that everything is getting urgent in these days.

4412. (Chairman.) What we understand is that they would only worry you about anything about which they had had very special instructions 7-Practically.

4419. Where, perhaps, a Governor wanted some- thing out by a certain date, and it had been given into someone's hands to see to, and he kept worrying you to see if those goods were ready 7-On medical stores, or anything like that, which are wanted in a particularly urgent way.

+

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

4414 You have not told us anything about insur- ance-The Crown Agents have an arrangement with the London Assurance Corporation, the Marine Department.

1415. Do they do the whole of their insurance- Yes. Some Colonies do not insure.

4416. Many 7-Ceylon does not insure at all, East Africa and Uganda, practically the Colonies that are kept up by Imperial funds, for instance, Northern Nigeria does not insure, and Southern Nigeria has taken a great deal of their own insurance.

4417. Your returns are about two millions and a quarter, or near that on the average: what proportion would you insure: a million or a million and a-half? -We have practically nothing to do with the insur- auce; we only get the trouble.

4418. Trouble of what?-When there are claims and thinge.

4419. Do you have to declare figures to the London Assurance Corporation?-Yes, we notify the London Assurance Corporation.

4420. (Sir Ralph Moor.) I suppose it is only really a writing off of open polities?—Yes.

4421. They have running open policies, and you just notify them the amount to write against them?—

Yes.

4422. (Chairman.) And if there is a loss you arrange that with them?-If it is a clear loss and there is no question whatever, the Crown Agents send in their claim and it is paid, but when any question arises it comes to us.

4423. You have to make out the general average?— We have to settle them.

4424. That does not mean very much with a company like the London Assurance Corporation where you have continuous business; they would not quarrel with you? No, they do not quarrel, but there is a good deal of work attached to it, and as I wrote to the Crown Agents it is very difficult to decide the respon- sibility between the ship and the insurance company.

4425. You say here it is part of your duty to adviso the Buying Department as to the most advantageous ports of shipment so that contracts may be placed accordingly, but you do not hear of them until they are placed? They come to us and say, "We have got tenders in for, say, some thousand tons of rails; which is the best port for freight?"

4426. Then they put that in their specification?— Then they would accept the tender which was most advantageous as regards price and freight.

4427. Have they not to put that in their specifica- tion when they ask for tenders? It is rather late in the day afterwards?-I think their system in invita- tion of tenders for large quantities of cargo like rails is to ask for a tender for delivery at a particular port. For instance, Bolckow-Vaughan would naturally tender to deliver at Middlesbrough, Guest Keen's tender would be for Cardiff, and Moss Bay and Cammel Laird for Workington or Maryport.

4428. "This year up to July we rendered to you do you mean that for the six months?-Soven months.

11.618 accounts":

4429. Is that a separate account for each shipment? Does that represent 11,818 shipments?—Yes.

4430. Various consignments?—Yes; some of those shipments would be single packages and some hun- dreds of tons.

183

[27 October 1908

4436. (Chairman.) "Forty or fifty per cent. of the accounts rendered by us were for sums under £1": in connection with that point could there not be more concentration ?-I believe it interferes with the system of the Colonies; they want to keep all their depart- ments separately and all their accounts separate.

4437. Supposing various consignments valued at sums of under £1 were going to one colony, those could not be collected and put in one case-It would cause a great deal of inconvenience, because the cases might be for up-country and for two or three different departments, and it would cause no end of confusion, especially in Eastern countries, and would necessitate the Crown Agents having a store to collect the goods.

4438. Then, of course, you have to do with the passages 7-Yes.

4439. About how many passages do you have in a year? Is there anything like an average, or does it vary very much ?-It varies very much the bulk of them are West African.

4440. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you find in practice that your people supervising the shipping relieves the ship- owner or the contractor of responsibility 1-No; we take very good care of that.

4441. You laid great stress just now on the necessity of seeing that parcels were delivered intact on board? -Yes.

4442. Surely the person responsible at the docks for loading the ship would call attention to any package that was defective, would he not, in the interests of the shipowner, assuming that the package is damaged in transit by rail?-Yes, he would in their own in- terest, but sometimes they do not.

4443. You look to your clerks in that case to see that a little extra care is taken 7-Yes, and to report; they have frequently accidents and damage caused.

4444. (Sir Ralph Moor.) In the two offices-your office and the Crown Agents' Office-there is a vast

amount of information 7-Yes.

4445. There must be continual references from one to the other with regard to getting the complement of the information that is in one that would be in the other office. Do you not yourself think there would be great advantages if those two offices were in cne and all the information was available in the one office?—I do not think so; we are on the spot in the City and in communication with all the docks and shipping offices.

4446. You are continually referring to the Crown Agents yourselves, are you not?-We have a direct telephone to their office."

4447. But you do have to continually to refer ?— Yes, and when any large question is involved we see the Crown Agents themselves.

4448. And you do not think there would be any great advantage gained if the two offices were in one and the information concentrated in one office?-I do not think so. The information which the ship- ping department would require that we have not got must be up here; for instance, as to the indents from the Colony they could not part with those or with their original correspondence.

4449. Yes; but you must obtain in what would appear to be a department of their work a vast amount of information, really, because you are con- tinuously in communication with the suppliers from the date the order is given, and you get a lot of information which is extraneous to the particular shipping agency, do you not?-I do not quite follow

4431. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you send in an account the moment you make the shipment or do you send them monthly-We send in our

you. accounts immediately be- cause the Crown Agents want to send them out to the Colony.

4432. You send your accounts in and the payments are made by the Crown Agents to you at irregular dates?--Yes.

4433. (Chairman.) "The bills of lading and parcels receipts numbered 10,860," so that you were able to concentrate certain items on the bills of lading?—Yes.

4434. As to those bills of lading, do you make those by manifolds -They are typed.

4435. (Mr. Bailey.) One typing does for the six?—I am not quite sure; I think it is two.

4450. From the date you receive their shipping orders you are continuously in communication with the suppliers with regard to the goods and the trans- port of them ?—Yes.

4451. In that communication you must obtain great deal of information which is extraneous to the ordinary shipping agency work?--I should think very few shipping agents have to deal with the cargo that we do.

4162. Very few shipping agents can have the in- formation in their offices that you have, owing to your continuous communication with suppliers ?-We consider we have obtained a considerable amount of