CO885-(19-20) — Page 19

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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Reference :--

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO |

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

make up £2 millions, and I Te 15,000 7-Yes.

e, if you divide 15,000 into two ", it brings it out to £7,000 or day? Of course, when you get like that they are extremely

would sometimes get big lamps? cular work is going on; for in- ng constructed, we get orders rs and rolling stock.

with our process. You have :tors. Do they send you back they wait until the goods are ther that they can give us the hey cannot, and promise to do

You do not want a specification -Yes, we must have a specifica- us in great trouble if we did : extremely careful, too.

laving got the specification,

-We engage the freight, and we

t these specifications, to make jet better terms.

ombinations, you must get a amall parcels for one place?—

r put together in cases?—Yes;

A

appen, supposing, for instance,

ors, that some of their goods r where they are very small n by post.

imallest sized cases you would or 20 lbs. Yes. Anything Iways posted.

whole, apart from your big

and your large supplies, packages or consignments that om the Army and Navy Stores and R. Morley, the soft goods g is sent to the packers.

caught my meaning; taking ents of the Crown Agents, Is a whole, more the sort of out from the Army and Navy may say, is a big consumers' resemble on the average more that would be sent out by a ley, or would they be a blend- u could not compare the Army se the Crown Agents' work is hardware; I do not think you cargo from a soft goods house which the Army and Navy

res in connection with engin alk of it-the Public Works

u supply the different Crown f things-whatever they want!

d not some of the things that

1y and Navy Stores, come in? Navy Stores supply to the

ly. They supply, for instance, oundary commissions.

d Navy really do a large busi-

gents 7-No, mostly for stores ing to the Colonies.

r provisions and things like

ral kit? Yes, they supply nally.

sight and you advise them -

process?-We engage freight Factors to deliver to a steamer London firms send down in the country firms send off

181

[27 October 1908

4358. Everything, I take it, is bought f.o.b. 7-Yea, but so many of the country contractors have nobody to represent them in London that we act for them; we follow up the shipment practically from the time it is sent off.

4359. I take it in those cases you would charge the contractor and not the Crown Agents?-We make no charge to the contractors.

4960. Still, they have estimated for f.o.b. and the railway company would deliver f.o.b. 1-Yes.

4861. Therefore where do you come in there?—If you do not look after all these stores the railway com- panies are always delaying, and they would never deliver alongside in time; you have to be continually prompting and communicating with them.

4362. Do you think most firms who order things f.o.b. trouble to have these seen through and do not hold the railway responsible for delivery? If they choose to take the risk, but I do not think it would pay the Crown Agents to leave the whole matter in the hands of the railway company.

What is the next

1969. You follow those goods. step? Our dock clerks are down at the docks and attend to the stowage.

4364. Is not that question of stowage rather a thing of the past? No, I think not, in a great many cases.

4365. Forty years ago one used to hear of people going down and being allowed on board vessels, but aurely there is no necessity to go on board nowadays? -Yes, there is, and it is done every day.

4366. Unless you were shipping something very special--We are always shipping special things.

4367. What do you mean by special things-For instance, we get earthenware pipes, alates, fragile

articles like instruments, and dangerous goods. Very often in the case of railway carriages and similar

cargo, if you are not careful, the stevedores would stow them any way they like to save room in the steamer.

1368. I could understand, for instance, if you had something very special and very valuable, that the ship would let you come and see about the things, but there

A

any

supposing, for instance, was shipping clerk from every firm shipping goods on

sleamer for Australia, India, or anywhere else, do you mean to say that they would allow 30 or 40 shipping clerks to be down there telling them how to stow the stuff --No, I should

think not, but if our dock clerks notice that any of those packages of a delicate nature or special kind

Reports

are being improperly stowed, they report to us at once, and we take it up with the owners.

come up to me every day with regard to the different shipments and where they are stowed.

4309. (Sir Ralph Moor.) It is only exercising a sort of general supervision of the stowage 7-Yes, but if anything was wrong we should give them notice that there was improper stowage.

4370. (Chairman.) How many ports would you ship from on the average during a week? The most, I suppose, would be from London-London and Liver-. pool, and a considerable quantity from Glasgow.

4371. But nothing much from the Eastern ports? Yes, from Middlesbrough.

4372. That is the iron-Yes, and that is a con- siderable quantity.

4279. Do the goods from Middlesbrough come round to London-No; nowadays most of the steamers go

to Middlesbrough; they used to bring the cargo round to London.

4374. Are you supposed to do that same sort of superintendence at Liverpool and Glasgow?—Yes.

4375. And you do that through other shipping Grms 7-Yes. We get plans and every information as to the stowage detailed reports which have been ex- tremely useful at times.

4376. Is there anything you do after that? Then we have to get the documents, the bills of lading, and to clear at customs. Then there are the accounts. May I tell you about the stowage? In all these deli- cate things we send a report up to the Crown Agents attached to our bill of lading, so that the consignee

-

182

27 October 1908]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE :

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

may know that there are delicate articles on board and take the proper steps on arrival.

4377. How often do those delicate articles occur?— There are any amount of them, earthenware pipes, meteorological and other instruments, billiard table alates, mortuary slates, and every conceivable thing practically is shipped.

4978. By the report that the Crown Agents send in there are something like 15,000 advices in all; 15 books are used entirely, and 1,000 pages are contained in each. Is that about the number of consignments ? -I think we gave it in a letter to the Crown Agents. Are you not quoting from a report as to the Crown Agents' own office?

4379. The bills of lading are some 10,000 odd up to July think you are quoting from the Crown Agents' Office report.

4380. Yes, I am, but this is information, I take it, given to them by you?-No. We are frequently getting goods delivered at the docks damaged, so that unless we have our people down there to notice them they get put on board the steamer and shipped. A complaint comes from the Colony, and nobody would know the cause of the damage.

1381. Then with regard to your charges, how long have these charges been going on upon this basis?— For some considerable time, but they are always being altered.

4382. They are altered under what circumstances ?— For instance, if there is a railway under construction, and there are large parcela going, we never think of charging the amount in our scale. The Crown Agents expect us always to do that.

4383. Of course, many of these charges were fixed before you were there?-Before I was a partner.

4384. What I want a little bit to get at if I can is this was there any principle decided upon in the building up of these prices?-The principle was that we should charge on a tonnage rate.

4995. But you do not do that quite; I notice a great many of these are so much a package and so much a cask; there is only coal and coke charged otherwise? Suppose you had a bill of lading for one case, and you charged on a tonnage rate, it would be absolutely nothing.

4386. I only put that question because you said it was built up on a tonnage rate?—It is on a tonnage rate, practically, the bulk of it.

4387. I see where you get that from; it is a tonnage rate; not a percentage on the freight ?—Yes.

4388. (Mr. Bailey.) And for any package you get a minimum of 1s. 3d. ?--Yes; very often that would go in expenses.

4389. (Chairman.) Has it ever been suggested that you should practically be an office of the Crown Agents? Not to my knowledge.

4390. It has never been hinted at ?—No.

4391. That the time would come when it should all be taken into the Crown Agents' Office?—I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for the Crown Agents to work it.

1392. As a matter of fact is it not being done mainly nowadays by most export firms 1-Yes, but they have only got one particular line of business mostly, whereas the Crown Agents have to deal with every branch of business for, I think, 50 Colonies and Protectorates.

4393. But supposing the Crown Agents were just to start a shipping business and build it up themselves, and take some of you gentlemen in as part of their staff-I do not think they would find that economi- cal.

4894. Why not?-Because they would have to have a large staff.

4395. Never mind; it is just a question whether they should pay salaries rather than that you should draw your income? Yes, but we take the risk.

4396. What risk ?—If we are doing a small business we get a small pay.

4397. That would be the same; there is elasticity in the staff employed -If the Crown Agents had a Government Office in the City you would find that would be a very expensive business.

4898. Why would it be more expensive? I can quite understand at the present moment they have not got the knowledge, but they might determine to start a shipping office and do it all themselves. Has that ever been thought of 7—I suppose it has been thought of, and it is not considered that it would be economical to do it.

4399. Why does it seem to you that it would not be economical ?—We consider we work our office in a very economical manner, but our actual expenses are 65 to 70 per cent. on the receipts.

4400. Do you not think the Crown Agents work theirs economically?—I would not say they do not for a moment, but if they have to take a large office in the City and employ a large staff——

4401. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Why is it necessary to have an office in the City 7-Because you must be in touch with all the shipping companies.

4402. (Chairman.) A room would do for that. Of course, you know, it is a question of supply and demand; if there are ships going empty, they come and look after you; if there are ships going full, you have to go and look after them?—Yes; but the Crown Agents have to do with such places that you have to induce steamers to call there.

4409. That could be done as easily from Whitehall Gardens as from the City ?-I think not.

4404. In these days of telephones?—I do not think it would be possible, with the varied business tho Crown Agents have, to work it from their office.

4405. You do for the Crown Agents very much more of the detail work 7-We do an enormous amount.

4406. And, personally, just as an ordinary business man, I say it is a great weakness on the part of the Crown Agents that they let you do that, because they do not keep sufficiently in touch as regards the in- formation with all these different Crown Colonies. You have more information than they have?-I think you must have misunderstood me; the Crown Agents are always in communication with the Colonies.

4407. I know they are.--We have never anything whatever to do with the Colonies.

4408. I know you have not, but at the same time you do a lot of that detail work which means getting & good deal of information; directly the Crown Agents have settled who is to be the contractor they do not take really any more trouble about it; they leave it to you? They leave the bulk of the work to us.

4400. (Mr. Harris.) I should like to clear up a point which came out before the Chairman came into the room, as to which I think your answers appear to be inconsistent. I wanted to make out whether the Crown Agents when they had given the shipping order kept worrying your firm: "Are you ready?" "Is that going to be ready" and so forth. I under stood from you that they did, but afterwards I under- stood you to say that they did not. What are the facts? I want to know whether the Crown Agents, after having sent the shipping order down to you, keep a watch upon it, and say: "Are those goods going to be ready alongside the steamier by such and such a date"?-If there is any particularly urgent order they do.

4410. But in the ordinary way they do not?—In the ordinary way they leave it in our hands. Urgent orders which any particular colony is anxious to have out expeditiously are watched by the Crown Agents' Office.

4411. I misunderstood you, really, as saying that you were being constantly worried by the Crown Agents? There are so many urgent orders now that everything is getting urgent in these days..

4412. (Chairman.) What we understand is that they would only worry you about anything about which they had had very special instructions?-Practically.

4413. Where, perhaps, a Governor wanted some- thing out by a certain date, and it had been given into someone's hands to see to, and he kept worrying you to see if those goods were ready?-On medical stores, or anything like that, which are wanted in s particularly urgent way.

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