CO885-(19-20) — Page 18

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

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19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH——NOT TO

180

27 October 1908]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

4282, (Mr. Bailey.) Do you write_to_the suppliers in advance of the date of delivery ?—Yes, if it was necessary to catch a steamer.

4288. (Chairman.) Might I go back a little and ask you a few questions with regard to how this has grown up? How long has your firm had this busi- ness-I should think over 50 years, and I have been there 32 years.

4284. Whom did it commence with? Under whose Crown Agency 7-Sir Penrose Julyan and Sir William Sargesunt.

4285. Who was in the firm then?-A. B. Freeland and his brother, but I do not think the brother then took any active part in it.

4286. There were two partners?—Yes, but I never know much about the J., and A. B. Freeland died about 28 years ago.

4287. Who was he succeeded by 7-By his two sons, John and A. Freeland.

4288. Did they play an active part in it?—Yes. 4289. Are they in it still!-No; John Freeland died last year.

4290. And the other brother-The other brother left the firm about 20 years ago.

4291. He went out of it; is he still alive?—He is alive now, and in a shipping business on his own

account.

4292. Is your business a private concern or a private limited company?—A private partnership.

4293. When Mr. Freeland who is still alive retired, who took his place ?-His elder brother John Freeland and Mr. Sargeaunt.

4294. Was not there someone of the name of Sar- geaunt in the Crown Agent's Office?—Yes.

4295. Was he any relation?—A son.

4296. Mr. Freeland parted with his share to Mr. Sargeaunt -No; Mr. Sargeaunt, who has been in the business 25 years, was taken into partnership by Mr. Freeland.

4207. He was in the concern before that?--For many years Mr. Sargeaunt was there.

4298. That leaves Mr. John Freeland in the concern and Mr. Bargeaunt as a partner?—Yes.

4299. What took place next-Then Mr. Freeland was very ill for some time before he died, and he took me into partnership.

4300. How long have you been in?-Since May last

year.

4301. Is Mr. Sargeaunt still in 7—Yes.

4301a. Are you the senior?—No, he is.

4302. Then you were taken in, and who else?—Mr. Blake.

4803. Is Mr. Blake any relation of Sir Ernest Blake?-He is a son.

4304. Are you any relation to anyone in the Crown Agents' Office?-No.

4305. You were brought up in the office?—I entered the office when I was 15, in 1876.

4306. And you have worked your way up from the bottom ?----Absolutely.

4307. And your two partners now are Mr. Sargeaunt and Mr. Blake; what aged men are they?-Mr. Sar- geaunt, I should think, is about 44.

4908. And Mr. Blake?—Is about 28 or 29.

4800. How long had Mr. Blake been in the office?— He came down from Cambridge and went into a ship- broker's office for two years.

4310. About what date Was that 7-About seven,

years ago.

4311. Since he came from Cambridge-Yes; he went for two years into a shipbroker's office, then went into a merchant's office for one year, and after- wards came to our office. He started right from the bottom and went through the office, beginning by going down to the docks.

4312. Are you all three working partners?-Cer- tainly.

4313. Giving your full time to it ?—Absolutely. 4314. You are not looked upon as the working partner and the other two not ? No.

4315. Has Mr. Blake any sons?—Yes, one child. 4316. As to the lines on which you are doing your business to-day with the Crown Agents, are they prac. tically the same as you have carried out all the way through? Yes, the same system has been continued.

4817. Do you come into contact with other Arms? What other business do you do?-We have done some business for manufacturers, but, as I told Sir Ralph, our business outside the Crown Agents is compara- tively small.

4318. In any business you have got outside do you do for them what you do for the Crown Agents ?— Yes.

4319. But, of course, you have there to do with the manufacturers themselves?—Yes.

4320. And therefore you simply take your instruc- tions and ship them wherever they want them shipped 7-Quite.

4921. Have you ever heard of an office where they do exactly the same as you are doing for the Crown Agents--The Admiralty and the India Office ship- ping agents do, to a certain extent, similar business.

4322. Take the thing so completely out of the Crown Agents' Office?—Not so much as we have to; the India Office, as I understand it—I do not know-1 may be wrong-have very large parcels of cargo for very few ports in India, and all their small stores from con- tractors I believe are collected at depôts. It is all cut and dried for them, and they have simply to arrange the freight, and it is sent to steamers when they ask the India Office to do so.

4923. May I just take you through the process of the business? You know there are goods to be shipped by getting copies of the orders?-We do not get copies of the orders; we get what we call a shipping order giving us the nature of the goods, the contractor's name, the date of the delivery and the inspector.

4324. You do not get full particulars?—No; we have got to collect them.

4325. How do you know what it is likely to amount to-We have to collect that; it is part of our busi- ness to collect all that information.

4326. From whom?-From the contractors. 4327. Do you mind just describing your process when, I take it, you get a batch of shipping orders ?— Yes, we write to the contractors.

4328. Do you get those down every day?—Yes, 4329. What do you get in a day?—Sometimes we get 30 or 40.

4330. That is to say, 30 or 40 shipping orders all coming from 30 or 40 different people-Bome shipping orders will have a dozen or more contractors' names on them.

4331. But at that moment you do not know what it will amount to?—Nothing whatever, except that they have the orders, and it is our business to find out.

got

4332. When you have got your shipping orders what is your next action?-To write to the contractors and ascertain when the goods will be ready.

4839. Are you not told that?—Yes, but the contrac- tors do not keep to their dates.

4334. You write to the contractors to know when they will be ready and what the goods are?—And to send us the shipping specification.

4335. You do not get that until the goods are ready! -You cannot until they are ready.

4336. Out of those 30 or 40 shipping orders, how many of them will be large and how many small?- They are mostly small.

4337. What do you mean by small-one case or two cases? One case or two cases or goods worth £4 or £10 all kinds of orders; it is a most varied business.

4388. Out of 30 or 40 shipping orders how many would be over £5007—1 could only make a very rough

guess.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

4339. You have to make up £2 millions, and I think your invoices were 16,000?—Yes.

4340. So that, you see, if you divide 15,000 into two millions and a quarter, it brings it out to £7,000 or £8,000 each working day? Of course, when you get locomotives and things like that they are extremely expensive.

4341. I suppose you would sometimes get big lumps? -Yes, when any particular work is going on; for in- stance, a railway being constructed, we get orders for the rails and sleepers and rolling stock.

4342. Let us go on with our process. You have written to the contractors. Do they send you back word at once, or do they wait until the goods are ready? They reply either that they can give us the specification, or that they cannot, and promise to do it as soon as possible.

4943. (Mr. Bailey.) You do not want a specification in every case, do you?—Yes, we must have a specifica- tion, or it would land us in great trouble if we did not, and we have to be extremely careful, too.

4344. (Chairman.) Having got the specification, what is the next step?-We engage the freight, and we try, when we have got these specifications, to make combinations so as to get better terms.

4345. Speaking of combinations, you must get a very large number of small parcels for one place?- A great many.

4346. Are those never put together in cases ?—Yes; the contractors do that.

1947. Does it never happen, supposing, for instance, there are ten contractors, that some of their goods might be put together where they are very small items! They send them by post.

1318. What are the smallest sized cases you would have weighing 8, 10 or 20 lbs. ?—Yes. Anything that can be posted is always posted.

4349. Take it a a whole, apart from your big things, like locomotives and your large supplies, would it be the sort of packages or consignments that you would have, say, from the Army and Navy Stores or from a firm like I. and R. Morley, the soft goods house? All the clothing is sent to the packers.

1850. You have not caught my meaning; taking the different consignments of the Crown Agents, would they resemble, as a whole, more the sort of parcels that would go out from the Army and Navy Stores, which, as you may say, is a big consumers' stores, or would they resemble on the average more the sort of consignments that would be sent out by a firm like I. and R. Morley, or would they be blend. ing of the two?--No, you could not compare the Army and Navy Stores, because the Crown Agents' work is mostly machinery and hardware; I do not think you could compare it with a cargo from a soft goods house or the small packages which the Army and Navy Stores deal with.

4351. It is mostly stores in connection with engin eering That is the bulk of it-the Public Works stores,

4852. I gather that you supply the different Crown Colonies with all sorts of things whatever they want? -Everything.

4352a. Therefore would not some of the things that come from, say, the Army and Navy Stores, come in? Yes, the Army and Navy Stores supply to the Crown Agents occasionally. They supply, for instance, stores for surveys and boundary commissions.

4353. Do the Army and Navy really do a large busi ness with the Crown Agents 1-No, mostly for stores when officers are proceeding to the Colonies.

4854. To supply their provisions and things like that?--Yes.

1355. And their general kit?-Yes, they supply camp equipment occasionally,

4358. Then you get freight and you advise them?- Yts.

4357. And the next process-We engage freight and we instruct the contractors to deliver to a steamer at a given date. The London firma send down in their own carts or barges, the country firms send off the cargo and advise us.

181

[27 October 1908-**

4958. Everything, I take it, is bought f.o.b. 7-Yen, but so many of the country contractors have nobody to represent them in London that we act for them; we follow up the shipment practically from the time it is sent off.

4359. I take it in those cases you would charge the contractor and not the Crown Agents?-We make no charge to the contractors.

4360. Still, they have estimated for f.o.b. and the railway company would deliver f.o.b. 7-Yes.

4861. Therefore where do you come in there?—If you do not look after all these stores the railway com- panies are always delaying, and they would never deliver alongside in time; you have to be continually prompting and communicating with them.

4382. Do you think most firms who order things f.o.b. trouble to have these seen through and do not hold the railway responsible for delivery-If they choose to take the risk, but I do not think it would pay the Crown Agents to leave the whole matter in the hands of the railway company.

4363. You follow those goods. What is the nex

step 1-Our dock clerks are down at the docks and attend to the stowage.

4364. Is not that question of stowage rather a thing of the past?—No, I think not, in a great many cases. 4865. Forty years ago one used to hear of people going down and being allowed on board vessels, but surely there is no necessity to go on board nowadays? -Yes, there is, and it is done every day.

4366. Unless you were shipping something very special?-We are always shipping special things.

4367. What do you mean by special things?-For instance, we get earthenware pipes, slates, fragile articles like instruments, and dangerous goods. Very often in the case of railway carriages and similar cargo, if you are not careful, the stevedores would stow them any way they like to save room in the steamer.

come

1368. I could understand, for instance, if you had something very special and very valuable, that the ship would

let you

and seu about the things, but supposing, for instance, there was A shipping clerk from every tirm shipping goods on any steamer for Australia, India, or anywhere else, do you mean to say that they would allow 30 or 40 shipping clerks to be down there telling them how to stow the stuff 7-No, I should think not, but if our dock clerks notice that any of those packages of a delicate nature or special kind are being improperly stowed, they report to us at once, and we take it up with the owners. Reports come up to me every day with regard to the different shipments and where they are stowed.

4369. (Sir Ralph Moor.) It is only exercising & sort of general supervision of the stowage ?-Yes, but if anything was wrong we should give them notice that there was improper stowage.

4370. (Chairman.) How many ports would you ship from on the average during a week? The most, I suppose, would be from London London and Liver- pool, and a considerable quantity from Glasgow.

4371. But nothing much from the Eastern ports? Yes, from Middlesbrough.

4372. That is the iron?-Yes, and that is a siderable quantity.

con-

4278. Do the goods from Middlesbrough come round to London?-No; nowadays most of the steamers go to Middlesbrough; they used to bring the cargo round to London.

4374. Are you supposed to do that same sort of superintendence at liverpool and Glasgow?—Yes.

4375. And you do that through other shipping firms-Yes. We get plans and every information as to the stowage-detailed reports which have been ex- tremely useful at times.

4376. Is there anything you do after that 7-Then we have to get the documents, the bills of lading, and to clear at customs. Then there are the accounts. May I tell you about the stowage In all these deli- cate things we send a report up to the Crown Agents attached to our bill of lading, so that the consignee