CO885-(19-20) — Page 17

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

179

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

| | | | | | | |

Reference :-

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

SUB-COMMITTEE ON SHIPPING AND PACKING ARRANGEMENTS.

Meeting on Tuesday, 27th October, 1908,

At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.

PRESENT:

COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.O., M.P. (Chairman of Principal ('ommittee).

Sir ALBERT SPICER, Bart.. M.P.

(Chairman of Sub-Committee). Sir RALPH MOOR, K.C.M.G.

R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., L.S.O. C. A. HARRIS, Esq., C.B., Ç.M.G.

A. J. HARDING (Secretary).

Mr. T. H. HOLT, called and examined.

4219. (Colonel Seely.) May I explain to you that this is a Sub-Committee of a Committee appointed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies to enquire into the staff and business of the Crown Agents' Office. You, I understand, are the senior partner' of Messrs. Freelands, and do a great deal of their shipping business?—Yes, but I am not the senior partner.

4220. In order to understand what staff there

should be, and how it should be organised, it is plain that we must understand the business that you con- trol. I am chairman of the whole Committee of which this is a Sub-Committee, and I have only to say on behalf of the whole Committee that we are very much obliged to you for coming at such short notice, and we shall be much indebted to you for the evidence you are to give us.

Col. SEELY withdrew and SIR RALPH MOOR took the Chair.

4221. (Sir Ralph Moor.) You do the entire shipping business of the Crown Agents' Office?—Yes.

4222. Is your firm engaged in any other shipping work beyond that?-We do any business that comes in our way; we are not confined entirely to the Crown Agents.

4229. You are not under any agreement with them that you should not take outside work?-No.

4224. But, as a matter of fact, do you take any out- side work? To a certain extent we do, but not very much.

4225. Is it any appreciable proportion of your busi- ness-the outside work beyond the Crown Agents?— Not very much.

4226. Then practically your entire organisation as a firm is necessitated by the requirements of the Crown Agents ?--Yes.

4227. So that we might almost regard you as a branch of their office?-Practically as a part of their office.

4228. Under those circumstances would you mind telling the Committee what your organisation consiste of, that is, your partners, and so on, and the entire organisation of your office The names of our part- ners?

4229. No, only the question of numbers, I think?- I have two partners; we have a staff of 25 clerks, and we have the whole of the house in Great St. Helens.

4230. There are three partners and 25 clerks in the office; and what out staff-We have agents in all the shipping ports like Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Cardiff, and Bristol.

4231, How many of those agents, roughly? They are not permanent employees of yours?-No.

4232. Your only permanent employees are the clerks?—Yes.

4233. Are those engaged entirely in London— Entirely.

4234. And the work at the out-ports you do through agents of your own?—Yes but we have to arrange for the shipment and leave it in their hands to attend actually to putting the cargo on board. We have to collect and get the cargo ready, and then engage the freight and leave it to the agents.

4295. Actually to superintend the shipment?-The shipment at these ports. We do the whole of the business here.

4236. That brings us to the general system you have with the Crown Agents in receiving the orders; I think perhaps the Committee would like you to tell us yourself, without my questioning, exactly the sys- tem operating as between the Crown Agents and your own firm as shipping agents—the exact management of the whole transaction.

(Mr. Harris.) May we first have the number of the agents at the out-ports, roughly 7-I think the Chair- man has already asked the question-Liverpool, Glasgow, Middlesbrough, Cardiff, Newport, Bristol, Antwerp, and occasionally Hamburg.

4237. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Would you now tell us the operation of the system which has been established as between yourselves and the Crown Agents?—In the first instance the Crown Agents order the stores from the suppliers, and after the contracts or orders are let they send to us what is called a shipping order, that is, giving us the names of the stores, the names of the contractors, the dates when they are due, the value, and the Crown Agenta' inspector. After that the Crown Agents practically leave the whole of the business in our hands.

4238. (Mr. Bailey.) Does the inspector have nothing mora to do than to examine the quality of the goods? Has he nothing to do about expediting delivery, and so on 7--No; that is for us to report to the Crown Agents when they get behindhand. Then we have to be continually writing to these contractors when cargo is due, and to get the shipping particulars, and arrange the freights and see that the cargo has been passed and certified by the inspector before it is ordered forward. Of course, we are always trying to make combinations and as good bargains as we can for a cargo.

4239. By combinations, you mean arrangements to make up a fair amount of freight?—Yes, so that we shall get the best possible terms of freight.

4240. (Sir Ralph Moor.) You try to group the par- cels? Yes. The Crown Agents order their cargo in every part of England practically, from every well- known maker, so that it takes a considerable amount of work to get this cargo together and arrange the parcels so as to get the best terms. Then the nature of the cargoes that the Crown Agents deal with is s very varied that it needs a considerable amount of

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

We

knowledge to attend properly to the business. order the cargo forward and practically follow it up immediately from the time it leaves the makers' works. We have people down at the docks to see the cargo on board, and see that it is properly stowed.

4241. (Mr. Bailey.) What people at the docka?-Our own clerks.

4242. You send a clerk down there on the occasion of every shipment?-Yes, we have two or three men who are always at the docks; they practically spend the whole of their time down there and do nothing else, and that is quite enough for them to do.

4243. (Mr. Harris.) They are amongst the 251— Yes.

+

4244. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Are these orders of the Crown Agents all or the greater part of them f.o.b.?— Most of them; we only deal with the f.o.b. cargoes.

4245. Then it does not really come into your hands until it is delivered at the docks?-No, the Crown Agents do not take possession of it until it is in the docks, but as to the country works we have to follow the whole thing up, see the railway companies, and make sure that the cargo is delivered in proper time to the steamers,

4246, Do you have to arrange the rates with the railway companies ?—No.

4247. (Mr. Bailey.) Are the orders given to the country contractors not also f.o.b. 7-Yes, but works say, in the Midlands, have no London representatives, and we instruct them to send to a certain steamer, and they advise us that the cargo has left their works, and we have to follow it up from then; otherwise we would have no end of delays, disputes, and steamers missed.

1948. (Mr. Harris.) Would you mind explaining how you mean by following it up exactly? Do you send somebody down to look after it?-Yes, we have to send people to the docks every day.

4249. I mean into the country?--No

4250. (Sir Ralph Moor.) To the supplier?-No. 4251. (Mr. Harris.) How do you follow it up there? Who puts it on the rail--the manufacturer, I take it?- The manufacturer, and it comes up to a London station br through to the docks to our order; then we are advised by the carriers of its arrival, and we have to follow it up until it is properly on board the

steamer.

4252. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Starting at the beginning of the system adopted the Crown Agents advise you immediately the order is placed, giving you the date of delivery and all the other information necessary to you ?--Yes.

4253 Do they take any further action whatever in the matter except on your initiative?—No, not unless there is considerable delay.

4254. The Crown Agents do not move in the matter at all then, unless you request them to?-No, unless any complication arises.

4255. You watch the date of delivery, and in the event of the goods not being delivered, communicate with them or with the suppliers -With the suppliers or with the railway company or with the carriers.

4256. If it has not been put on the railway, or if you have no advice of its being on the railway-Leaving the contractor's works, you mean?

4257. I take a case where a contract is placed, and you are advised it is to be shipped by such-and-such a date and you find the goods are not delivered, do you communicate with the Crown Agents always, or some- times with the suppliers-No, we communicate en- tirely with the suppliers; we never trouble the Crown Agents in those matters at all.

4258. (Mr. Bailey.) Unless there is delay which you cannot overcome ?-Unless they have not completed their contracts by their contract dates and there is

[27 October 1908

considerable delay; then we report to the Crown Agents, and they take the matter up and request explanations from the contractors.

4258. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Of course, if there is delay as between the suppliers and the dock during the journey, that is a matter your carriers would advise you of-Yes, we attend to that,

4260. At the same time the supplier really is respon- sible during that portion of the transaction? He is responsible, but he does not take any trouble.

4261. I want quite to get at it. The supplier has made a contract fo.b.; therefore, distinctly his respon. sibility does not cease until he has delivered those goods at the steamer?-That is so.

4262. But if there is delay in transit from his works to the steamer, you take it up and do not write to him and compel him to?-No, it is not worth while; he is in the country and has no representative in London, and it is no use communicating with him unless there is serious trouble.

4269. (Mr. Bailey.) Is it too much to assume that the Crown Agents really relieve many of their con- tractors of the obligation to deliver f.o.b. 7-No.

4264. They do not relieve them of the cost? No. 4265. But of the obligation? They do not relieve them of the obligation at all; in practice, unless a shipping business is looked after, many a case might arise where things would go wrong and steamers would be missed, and it is no benefit to the Crown Agents to communicate with them after the steamer is gone. We are put in this position, that we have to see that the cargo is there.

4266. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Taking a case where there is delay in delivery, and you miss a steamer, and so on, at what stage do you communicate with the Crown Agents? Suppose they give you a date of delivery as on the 17th of November; the 17th Novem- ber comes, and you have not succeeded in getting delivery? Then we report to them; we report every month.

4267. Do you report at once-immediately the date is passed? Not at once-monthly.

4268, What would be the maximum delay after the expiration of the date of delivery 7-Under & month.

4269. Then you might not communicate with the Crown Agents for the period of one month after they were due for delivery?-That would very rarely happen.

4270. That would be the extreme?-Quite the ex- treme, and when they are urgent stores we continually tell the Crown Agents, and ask them to put pressure upon the contractors.

*

4271. (Mr. Harris.) Do you never get a reminder from the Crown Agents: "Are such and such goods due on the 17th of November" (as the Chairman said) "ready or nearly ready?"?-Yes, continually; they are always asking.

4272. By letter?--By letter and telephone.

4273. They keep stirring you up?-Yes, they are in a constant state of anxiety.

4274. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Then, to an extent, they do follow the thing, after they have given you the order?

-When we ask their assistance.

4275. But without your assistance being asked in any way, once they have given the order to you, as regards the working out of all the details, do they follow the matter at all?-Yes, when they find that their contracts are overdue they are always writing to the contractors.

4276. Overdue, but not prior to that? Not until they are overdue.

4277. They would not move in the case of an over- due consignment unless you communicated with them?

-Occasionally they do.

4278. But it would not be customary?-No.

at once communicate with the suppliers ?—Yes, always at once.

At this point SIR ALBERT SPICER took the Chair. 4279. (Chairman.) Directly the order is passed over to you, you know what those goods are, you know when they have to be ready by, and you know who is to be the inspector 7-Yes,

4280. And when any delay takes place you do not

• 21

4281, But you also communicate with the Crown Agents? We send a report monthly to the Crown Agents.

Z 2

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO