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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

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31 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir E. BLAKE.

4056. (Mr. Gibson.) It is a little more than the mere social side. The Secretary to the High Commissioner- for Canada said that he put-manufacturers into touch with people over here in business. You with your great knowledge and variety of business would be very useful to persons in that way?--I should help anyone I could if I thought his quest was a reason- ablo one an

andzone not likely to get the Government into trouble.

4057. With your great experience you would be able to render great assistance?—There is a recent instance in point: A newspaper man writes and asks my opinion as to the best Crown Colony to go to, and I refer him to the Emigrants' Information Office; then he writes and says: "I want your own personal opinion," and of course I write back to him and say: “It is quite out of the question that with 50 Governments to serve I can express any opinion as to which is the best": I can only refer him back to the Emigrants' Informa- tion Office, and he must make his own choice.

4058, (Chairman,) We have come nearly to the end of the points I have laid down. The last, and of course the most important one on which we shall have to form our own judgment, is the question as to the change, if any, which should be made in the status, the method of appointment, and the pay of your staff. You have seen the evidence which has been given by the different members of your staff?—Yes.

4059. I should say we have received a memorandum as to certain grievances which they put forward in the year 19017—It was more than a memorandum of griev- auces, if you will allow me to say so; we asked them to inquire what were the grievances, and the Committee took upon themselves to formulate a lot of recom mendations; in fact, they went altogether outside their province.

4060. A word upon the report of that Committee. It appears from this report that the staff then held the view, which they all express now, that they were anxious for more certainty?—They have been anxious for more certainty, and that is quite reasonable.

4061. It does not appear that anything has been done -I explained in my previous evidence that we have been in a very transitional state, and that we have had to alter the organisation of the office alto- gether. As a consequence we have had a considerable number of men who have been redundant, and we wanted to absorb or in some way or other to transfer these men before we could bring the new organisation into force. That is the position.

4082. I have here the report of the Committee. It seems that all classes of them were anxious then, as they appear to be anxious now, to hate a certainty as to their annual increment, and a certainty as to the minimum which would be granted to those who entered the office who had not passed the Civil Service examination. With regard to that certainty, what objection is there to having the same measure of cer tainty that obtains in the Civil Service with regard to increment, original appointment, and so forth?— I can quite understand their desiring it, and I should probably desire it myself if 1 were in their position.

4003. You have a certainty, have you not?-I say if I were in their position; I was supposing that I was a youngster, at the bottom; but our point of view is that we do not want to do anything which will make our clerks our masters The report of that Committee will show you that the clerks were very much inclined to try to arrogate to themselves certain functions we considered belonged to the Crown Agents alone; in fact, as I have said in my previous evidence, we have tried to work our office on a commercial and business basis. We have never regarded it as a Government Office, and we have always resisted any effort on the part of our clerks to dictate to us what we should do.

4064. We quite understand that; but what I want to ask you is: what is the special objection to there being that measure of certainty in all these matters which obtains in the Civil Service, or approximately that? You tell us, as far as it is a reply-and it is the only reply you give that you are determined that your staff shall not be your masters. What I want to ask you is why should your staff be your masters in

the case of the Crown Agents Office if they had this measure of certainty; whereas, it appears to the Com. mittee, that the staff of Government offices are not the masters of their official superiors? (To Sir Francis Mowatt.) When you were the head of a branch of the Civil Service, Sir Francis, did you ever regard the Treasury glerks as your masters? (To the Witness.) My I wish you to give us what answer you can. asking that question of Sir Francis Mowatt shows exactly the kind of thing which presents itself to our minds. We know that in many Government offices the idea of the subordinates being the masters is even more unthinkable than in the case of a commercial firm? I know that it ought to be unthinkable.

4065. Give us a disquisition on the subject.-First of all, I should like to say it is quite a mistake for these men to say that they have no knowledge as to what their prospects are. We have never fixed any thing absolutely, but, beginning at the bottom of the office, we said that any lad who passed the Civil Ser- vice Commission examination should have a certain salary, and the cases of the other men were to be absolutely at our discretion. At first we began by giving them rather lower rates, but afterwards it came out that these boys would not go up for examination, and practically we have had to give them the higher

rates.

4066. I am sorry to interrupt you, but I want you to answer the question I put to you as to why, if you gave them that measure of certainty, there should be inore likelihood that they would be your masters_than there is in the case of a Government Office 1-1 am afraid you do not appreciate the point; I do bitterly, from a long experience.

4067. Tell us all about it-When a man gets an absolute certainty, unless he is rather an unusual man, he is very apt to presume upon that certainty, and you do not get the best out of that man.

4068. Cannot I bring you back to the question? Why should there be this fear of insubordination in your office?—It is not insubordination.

4069. Why should there be this fear of their becom- ing your masters more in your case than in the case of the Civil Service?—I have had the working of a very big business, and I know how difficult it is to get work out of the men unless they are willing to work. There is a sort of dead-set opposition that is very difficult indeed, and I think if you give a man fixity of tenure, absolute fixity as regards salary and everything else to a great extent the stimulus for work is withdrawn.

4070. You know, of course, that under Civil Service rules this fixity of tenure is by no means absolute?— Theoretically, I suppose that is 8o.

4071. And that actually a great measure of selection ensues upon good work done?—Yes.

4072. Do you regard it as impossible, then, for a Government Office to do good work I do not say it is impossible, but I say it is very difficult. If you leave our clerks to ourselves we can work out a scheme which will give them satisfaction. The only thing I want is this, I should like to know from the Com- mittee whether they consider that we should be justi. fied in paying our staff more.

4073. I do not think we can answer that question. but on the answer you have just given I should like to ask you this: You say you are quite capable of making your staff contented; here we have a large number of grievances and I see one of them marked:" Decided in May, 1908, this may be allowed in future." For four years that grievance existed, and most of the other grievances appear not to have been dealt with at all? -That is probably a question on which the Committee 'could give me very valuable assistance; it is the ques- tion of overtime. I do not suppose there is a more difficult question to decide than that of overtime. You are on the horns of a dilemma. If you do not mind your staff will create overtime. If you do not give them overtime they consider it is a grievance. I do not know which side to come down upon. If a par ticular department gets overtime, all the other depart- ments are up in arms, saying: "Why cannot we have overtime?" It is the most thorny question of all administration.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE.

4074. (Mr. Gibson.) You know that this matter is settled satisfactorily in the Civil Service; there are regular rules that certain people may get overtime pay and others may not all these difficulties arise and are surmounted?—I know that is so with the lower grade clerks,

4075. With regard to the stimulus for work, tako the War Office, for instance. During the South African War many of the clerks were doing the same kind of work that yours do for 12 and 13 hours a day?—They should be paid for it.

4076. I was referring to the question of stimulus. These people have fixity of tenure, but when an effort is required there is no glowing off; on the contrary, it was admitted that they worked admirably and for long periods of overtime for two years?—Yes, and I think it is very creditable to them that it should be so. 4077, (Chairman.) Are you still of opinion that what you might call fixity of tenure and fixity of rates of pay in so far as they are fixed in the Civil Service would militate against the efficiency of your office?—I am afraid it would.

1078. You still think so?--I still think so, judging by the attitude that the men take up.

4079. (Sir Albert Spicer.) You said you thought it would be perfectly possible for you to draw up a scheme that would be satisfactory; do you propose to submit to the Committee such a draft scheme?—No, because the Committee has practically had that ques- tion referred to it.

4080-81. But you say you could do it; do you pro- pose to put in the scheme?—If the Committee ask us we will put in a scheme.

4082. (Chairman.) Supposing the Secretary of State were to decide that there should be a fixed rate of salary, increment, and so forth, could you put in a memorandum as to what you thought those fixed rates should fairly be?-May I put it in this way, that I should put in a memorandum of what I had contem- plated recommending if it had not been for this Com- mittee.

4083. Will you kindly do that?—Yes, I will. 4081. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) We have alluded to the inquiry that took place in 1904, and the terms of reference to that Committee appear to be: "A Committee, consisting of the chief clerk, of Major Carmichael, and of three members of the staff to be selected by the staff of the first, second and third classes, is constituted to inquire whether there is any dissatisfaction amongst the staff as to the conditions of service existing in the office, and, if so, on what ground?" That appears, if I may say 80, a very wide reference; it would bring almost any ques tion of dissatisfaction, or the grounds upon which that dissatisfaction exists, within the conditions, of the reference?-And that was our object; our desire was to know that. It was stated to me that the agita- tion was got up by a few members of the staff, "and that it was generally most unpopular with the staff. Who those members were I do not know.

4085. My object in asking you this question was this: I think you said just now that you thought that in the report of that Committee, or the memorandum which they drew up, they had travelled altogether out- side the terms of their reference?-Yes, I thought they did,

4088. I only wanted to point out to you that they may have been misled by the extremely wide condition of their reference, which is as to whether there is any dissatisfaction amongst them, and if so, on what grounds? Quite so; if they had given us the causes of dissatisfaction that would have been all right, but they proceed to formulate a scheme for the office which was not within their reference, I think.

4087. (Mr. Gibson.) I take it that you object to the Committee's saying: "Although the Crown Agents only ask for inquiry, the Committee consider that it is necessary to make certain recommendations "?—Yes. 4088. (Chairman.) 1 suppose any committee of ordinary Englishman, unless they were entirely bereft of all independence, would naturally wish, on being asked by you to inquire, to make some sort of sug

at

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[31 July 1908.

gestions of a respectful nature?-When that report came in my colleagues and I read it, and we arrived the conclusion that there was nothing very serious the matter and that we would take up these questions from time to time as we could, and when we were able to put before the Secretary of State the scheme of re-organisation all the substantial grievances would disappear. That was our view.

4080. (Sir Francis Afowatt.) May I ask what answer, if any, and at what date, was given to this menioran- dum-No answer has been given to it; it was treated as a confidential document for the information of the Crown Agent; but we have introduced a variety of changes, and where we thought the men had a substan- tial grievance we have tried to remedy it.

4090. (3fr. Gibson.) Are the marginal notes just put on now-They are put on now to show how it has been carried out.

4091. Where it says "done" it may mean very recently in the last month or so?-They were mostly done at the time. I asked our chief clerk to fill in those notes.

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4092. You say there was nothing substantial in these points; but you notice there is practically a unanimous grievance or recommendation that there should be a defined rule as to minimum and maximum salaries with regular increments? That I have met before, by saying that we were not in position to go to the Secretary of State, We are in a most awkward position. If we could deal with the Secretary of State it would be all right. but the Secretary of State's staff take upon themselves to criticise our work and to be our masters, and that is what we object to. If we could go to the Secretary of State and say: "This is what we recommend, will you approve it?" we should be glad enough to go to him.

4093. (Chairman.) Which is the real reason why you object to a fixed scale. You said first you objected to it because you must have complete control, and that it would reduce your control if the staff knew they would be on a fixed scale?—Yes.

4094. You said you could not get good work out of them unless you were able to raise or lower it accord- ing to their efficiency, and now you tell us that it is because of the difficulty with the Secretary of State?— I am afraid I did not make myself clear; I was answering Mr. Gibson's question as to why we had not brought this forward.

4003. Which is the reason?-My answer is, because it has to run the gauntlet of the Colonial Office. We were going to put forward a scheme and we were going to lay down broad general lines on which the office should be reorganised.

on.

4098. Would not that derogate from your autho rity? I want to be clear on the point, which is the last one I am to put to you: What is the real objection to a fixed scale? You tell us now that you are think- ing of putting forward a fixed scale, but there is some reason for delay through the Secretary of State and so You said before that you objected to the fixed scale in toto and the fixed rate of increment, because you said you wished to have complete control of your office as a commercial establishment?—If we could de- fine what "fixed" means-that it is not hired; if it is merely a rate they will get if everything is favourable. them I have not the least objection, but I do say that a man should not be entitled to have that as a matter of course. I have a return here of the increments we have actually made, if you would like to have it.

4097, (Mr. Gibson.) With regard to this scheme you are proposing to put before the Committee, does that contain definite scales of pay with regular increments for the various grades?-We shall certainly put in a scheme of that kind, so long as we have the right of altering them. It should not be absolutely fixed."

4098. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I understand you would like to be allowed to alter the scale against an indivi- dual who was not doing his work porfectly satisfac- torily? That is so.

• Bee Appendix XI.