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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

TIT

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C.O.885

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ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

-174

31 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir E. BLAKE.

4099. But that you would be prepared to accept the scale as a fixed scale of payment for persons doing their work properly Quite so,

4100. Probably you would like also, in the case of very excellent service, to be allowed to give an extra increment, as in the case of the Civil Service ?--Quito so; that is the position.

4115. But hitherto you have always paid the pen- sions of your staff out of the annual income 7-I cannot say.

4110. It is charged against the annual income?-The fund was established with a view to providing for the pensions of the office staff: there is no doubt whatever about that.

4117. As a matter of fact, the reserve fund is ac- cumulating, and you charge your pensions against your annual income?--Some years we have had to take the interest on the Reserve Fund to supplement our

4101. Your objection to a fixed scale hitherto has been that you feared that you could not modify that scale in the case, either of indifferent service or very excellent service? That is exactly the position.

4102. (Chairman.) May we

earnings. now take it that you have no objection to a similar arrangement to that which prevails in our great Government offices?—If we have the power of modifying it.

4103. The same power that the heads of these great Departments have?-I do not know those powers; my knowledge of Government service is very ancient, but my idea is that it is an enormous step to affect the increment of a man in a Government office.

4104. (Mr. Bailey.) At present, I believe, you give increments of varying amount, do you not ?-Yes.

4105. Some years a man gets £15 and other years £10-That particular case of the £10 was because we had not enough money to go round; that was the

reason.

4106. (Mr. Gibson.) You do not intend to continue the system that Sir Montagu Ommanney describes thus in his evidence: "I think it is a useful thing to be able to say to a man, You have been slack this year and I have only given you £5 as an increment,' or You have done well and I have given you £10.'" You do not want to vary them in each individual case?— We always look at the individual cases; in January of each year the list of the office staff is brought up and we go through it and give increments to the men.

4107. You have done so in the past, but you do not propose to do that in the future?-I think we should; think the Crown Agents should always retain that right.

4108. Would you weigh the case of each individual and say that one man is to have a £ increment, an- other £5. and another £67-If there was nothing against a man he would get the standard increment. 4109. There will be a standard increment?-Yes. 4110. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I want to ask this single question as to the increment. One of the griev ances as represented to this Office Committee, and the same grievance has been brought before this Commit- tee, is that the increment appears to vary occasionally, not in reference to the particular conduct of an indi vidual, but the whole increments of a class have been reduced in one year and put up again in another year. That grievance (if it is one) was alluded to in 1904, and it was put to us as rather an additional grievance. that the staff have never had an explanation from that day to this as to the cause why the general increments of a class were increased or put down -So far as my memory will serve me now, the reason for that reduc tion of increment was that we really had not enough money to go round. It had so happened that we had practically no margin.

4111. (Mr. Bailey.) Had you not the reserve fund at that time?-The position of affairs is this: that the Secretary of State authorises us to spend so much money on so many clerks, and our friend here (3fr. Gibson) would very soon pull us up if we spent more. 4112. (Mr. Gibson.) Could you not have obtained the Secretary of State's authority to spend more?—Yes, of course, but we were in a transitional state; here is the return of the various increments which I will put in, which will enable you to see exactly how the mat- ter has been done (handing in the same).

4113. (Mr. Leathes.) How long have you been in a transitional state-We have been in a transitional state, as I said in my previous evidence, since 1900.

4114. (Mr. Gibson.) With regard to this money limit, is it not the case that the interest on the reserve fund was intended to pay for the pensions of the staff? --Undoubtedly.

4118. But the Reserve Fund has been going up by leaps and bounds; you surely would not urge that there was not plenty of money to pay a definite scale of increments, would you?-No.

4119. Then I do not quite understand your answer. 4130. (Mr. Bailey.) Had you not rather an extra- ordinary expenditure at that time upon your new offices --We had very heavy expenditure on account of the new offices.

4121. (Chairman.) So that the staff had to do with- out for a bit. Is that it? We are very busy people, and at that time I was very much overworked. I really do not remember the circumstances, all I can say is that it is not the case that the staff were not in- formed of the reason. They were informed of the reason. I am perfectly certain.

4122. (Sir Albert Spicer.) The individual men would be informed 7-Yes, and the chief clerk was informed. The chief clerk says he does not know why the secre- tary was appointed. He certainly knew it. I have a letter here I can read to you, and as he must have furnished the Colonial Office reply to the Audit Office as justifying the appointment, I think we may certainly assume that he saw the letter to which it was a reply.

4123. (Chairman.) We are very much obliged for this statement of the actual increments during the last eight years; it shows very clearly that it varies enor- mously from year to year.

No doubt that is part of the reason for some of the discontent ?-There is no doubt of it that that is the reason.

4124. (Mr. Gibson.) As regards the question of the post of secretary. I understand that you consi- dered it necessary to make the appointment, owing to the great stress of work imposed on the Crown Agents with regard to signing letters, documents, etc., and other formal matters. With regard to the appointment itself, did you ask that the appoint- ment should be made from the Colonial Office, or did you suggest that one of your staff should get the appointment?-We asked that it should be made from the Colonial Office. May I read the letter to the Colonial Office? It is dated 9th May, 1903, and addressed to the Under Secretary of State:-" Sir,—I have the honour to state that owing to the very great increase in our work we find it necessary to apply for the Secretary of State's authority for making a change in the organisation of this office. (2) Up to the pre- sent time all correspondence and tenders have been opened in the room of one or other of the Crown Agents, and have not been passed out to the office until they have been seen by a Crown Agent and have had his initials placed upon them, and we consider it essen- tial that this or some similar system should be main- tained with the view of securing that all complaints or representations as to the conduct of our business reach us, and that there shall be no possibility of tenders being tampered with. Similarly, all letters and orders by one or other of the Crown Agents. (3) The result and cheques emanating from the office have been signed of this system has been to keep a very thorough control by the Crown Agents over their business, but it has imposed upon us personally an enormous amount of detail labour, and the business of the agency has now reached such dimensions that we find it difficult to give to the larger and more important questions with which we have to deal the time and attention which they require. (4) In these circumstances it has become absolutely necessary that some change should be made in the existing system of business, and we have consi- dered whether we could safely delegate any of our duties to any of the merubers of our staff. The only

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE..

suitable officer is our chief clerk and accountant, but he is already so fully engaged with his own proper duties that such an arrangement is out of the ques- tion. (5) We have therefore arrived at the conclusion that the best way of meeting our present difficulties would be by the appointment of a secretary to the Crown Agents to whom we could delegate the super- vision of the opening of letters and tenders and their distribution to the office, the conduct of the minor routine correspondence of the office, and the signing of cheques up to a specified amount, and any other suit. able duties which we find that we can entrust to him." 4125. Does that letter ask that the appointment should be made in the Colonial Office?—We suggested that a certain member of the Colonial Office should be appointed.

4120. You say there that the chief clerk's duties were so onerous that they could not be added to?- That is so.

4127. Did that mean that ho was unsuitable for the post? No, he would have been a very suitable man for a secretary if we could have spared him, but the duties of the accountant are very important.

4128. The salary of the secretary was to rise to £1,000 a year?—I know, and that is one of the griov-

ances.

4129. You did not feel able to nominate your chief clerk on the ground that he could not be spared from his own duties, although they were being remunerated at a lower rate? That was the mistake of going to the Colonial Office for the secretary; it was a mistake.

4130. (Sir Albert Spicer.) Do you consider that that appointment has been a success?—That is a very deli- cate subject, and there are very many personal consi- derations.

175

[31 July 1908.

4131. You asked for someone out of the office?-We did, but we did not get the man we wanted.

4132. You put that on the Colonial Office sending you the wrong man?-No, there was some hitch about it; the man wo wanted did not come. He would have been a very suitable man, but we got another man-it is a very delicate subject, and it is very awkward for me, with two Colonial Office men present, to discuss Colonial Office men.

4133. I am compelled to ask the question?—I should bo very happy to tell you privately my opinion, if that would be of any use.

4134. Looking back, may you not have been mis- taken in thinking that no one from your office was more suitable for that position than an outsider?—I will go so far as this; that if I had a fresh appoint- ment to make I would not go to the Colonial Office; I would get a man either from within the office or out- side the office, but I would not go to the Colonial Office for a secretary again.

4135. You would not have taken anyone from your own office? If we had we should have had to appoint a fresh accountant; that is what it would have Amounted to. The accountant could not possibly do all the work.

4136. (Mr. Leathes.) May I ask whether that letter sets out in full the duties of the secretary as at pre- sent performed?-Yes, pretty well.

4137. To what extent is he an intermediary between the Crown Agents and the rest of your staff?-He is not an intermediary, and we have been very careful, with a view to avoiding friction, not to allow him to exercise any jurisdiction. All that he does is dele- gated. If a Crown Agent gives him a particular piece of work that is on the authority of the Crown Agent, but he has no power over any department.

At this point SIR FRANCIS MOWATT took the Chair.

4138. Really the secretary is more like a subordinate officer attached to the Crown Agents?--He is their personal offer, and he is there to help them in pro- tecting themselves against their staff.

4139. He is not really the head of the office?—Not in the least.

4140. The chief clerk is really the head of the office? The chief clerk is the head of the office.

4141. And the secretary is, in a sort of way, outside the ordinary office?—He was appointed to assist the Crown Agents in duties which they did not feel they could properly entrust to any member of the staff.

4142. He is really a private secretary ?—Ho is partly a private secretary and partly a public secretary. He has work delegated to him.

4143. Would you say that he has definite adminis- trative duties or not?-Yes, he, to a certain extent, looks after the appointment branch of the office under Mr. Mercer; Mr. Mercer is responsible for it, but the secretary does a great deal of that work and he does a great doal of the small drafta in connection with the Pay Office, which is also under Mr. Mercer.

4144. Do you mean that he drafts the letters ?----Yes, settles them.

4145. Does he often draft an important letter?—If we ask him to.

4146. Under instructions only -Strictly under in- structions.

4147. He does not prepare business and bring it to you with a recommendation ?-No, he is not a secre- tary in the ordinary sense of the word. We distinctly leave the important work to the departments. There would be enormous jealousy if the secretary interfered with the departments.

4148. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You say you leave the important work of the department to each depart- ment 7-Yes.

4149. (Mr. Leathes.) The secretary is supposed to know about the personnel of the office?-In what way?

4150. You said he had to do with appointments?- That is, the appointments to the Colonies; he has nothing to do with the staff of the office.

4151. He has no influence on promotion ?-No influ- ence on promotion whatever; he is merely a kind of Assistant Crown Agent.

4152. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) It would be as well to make it quite clear. I hold your minute in my hand. "The secretariat is constituted from this date, con- sisting of five branches; one of those is the secretariat proper." Then it proceeds to state: "All matters of detail and routine shall be dealt with as at present directed by the heads of the different branches; but any question of principle connected with the various branches should be raised by the secretary, and should be dealt with by him in conjunction with the Crown Agents"?-Yes, that is to say, only in those parti- cular branches and not the office generally.

4153. In point of fact, what you call the secretariat? -Yes.

4154. Therefore, he is in fact, the head of those five branches in respect of matters of principle connected with them, but not with routine?--That is so. The object was to try and get all this miscellaneous work under one head; it was spread about the office in former days, and now it has been all brought into one focus.

4155. You have already answered, but perhaps you could distinctly answer this question again. You con- sider that both the secretary and the accountant are fully occupied with the duties now entrusted to them? -The accountant is very fully occupied, and there is an enormous amount of accounting work in the office. 4156. And the secretary -I do not have much to do with the work of the secretary.

4157. (Mr. Leathes.) Is it the case that the duties of the secretary are of a more detailed and routine nature

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE.

erk and accountant, but

ed with his own proper ent is out of the ques- rrived at the conclusion our present difficulties

nt of a secretary to the

uld delegate the super- rs and tenders and their

› conduct of the minor office, and the signing of int, and any other suit- we can entrust to him."

that the appointment

al Office -We suggested Colonial Office should be

the chief clerk's duties uld not be added to

e was unsuitable for the

en a very suitable man

ve spared him, but the ery important.

cretary was to rise to

that is one of the griov-

to nominate your chief uld not be spared from were being remunerated

› mistake of going to the

J; it was a mistake.

you consider that that -That is a very deli. ry many personal consi-

175

[31 July 1908.

4131. You asked for someone out of the office?—We did, but we did not get the man we wanted.

4132. You put that on the Colonial Office sending you the wrong man?-No, there was some hitch about it; the man wo wanted did not come. He would have been a very suitable man, but we got another man-it is a very delicate subject, and it is very awkward for

me, with two Colonial Office men present, to discuss Colonial Office men.

4133. I am compelled to ask the question?—I should bo very happy to tell you privately my opinion, if that would be of any use.

4134. Looking back, may you not have been mis- taken in thinking that no one from your office was more suitable for that position than an outsider?-I will go so far as this; that if I had a fresh appoint- ment to make I would not go to the Colonial Office;

I would get a man either from within the office or out- side the office, but I would not go to the Colonial Office for a secretary again.

4135. You would not have taken anyone from your own office 7-If we had we should have had to appoint a fresh accountant; that is what it would have

amounted to. The accountant could not possibly do all the work.

4136. (Mr. Leathes.) May I ask whether that letter sets out in full the duties of the secretary as at pre- sent performed 7-Yes, pretty well.

4137. To what extent is he an intermediary between the Crown Agents and the rest of your staff?---He is not an intermediary, and we have been very careful,

with a view to avoiding friction, not to allow him to exercise any jurisdiction. All that he does is dele- gated. If a Crown Agent gives him a particular piece of work that is on the authority of the Crown Agent, but he has no power over any department.

this point Sta FRANCIS MOWATT took the Chair.

more like a subordinate Agents? He is their to help them in pro-

r staff.

ad of the office ?—Not in

y the head of the office?

the office.

n a sort of way, outside appointed to assist the they did not feel they member of the staff.

secretary?—He is partly a public secretary. Ha

e has definite adminis-

ie, to a certain extent, anch of the office under sponsible for it, but the hat work and he does a in connection with the

Mr. Mercer.

trafts the letters ?--Yes,

n important letter?-If

ly-Strictly under in-

usiness and bring it to -No, he is not a secre te word. We distinctly he departments. There

the secretary interfered

You say you leave the riment to each depart-

4149. (Mr. Leathes.) The secretary is supposed to know about the personnel of the office?-In what way?

4150. You said he had to do with appointments?- That is, the appointments to the Colonies; he has nothing to do with the staff of the office.

4151. He has no influence on promotion 7-No influ- ence on promotion whatever; he is merely a kind of Assistant Crown Agent.

4152. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) It would be as well to make it quite clear. I hold your minute in my hand. "The secretariat is constituted from this date, 'con- sisting of five branches; one of those is the secretariat

proper." Then it proceeds to state: "All matters of detail and routine shall be dealt with as at present

directed by the heads of the different branches; but any question of principle connected with the various branches should be raised by the secretary, and should be dealt with by him in conjunction with the Crown

Agents"-Yes, that is to say, only in those parti- cular branches and not the office generally.

4153. In point of fact, what you call the secretariat? -Yes.

4154. Therefore, ho is in fact, the head of those five branches in respect of matters of principle connected with them, but not with routine?-That is so. The object was to try and get all this miscellaneous work under one head; it was spread about the office in former days, and now it has been all brought into one

focus.

4155. You have already answered, but perhaps you could distinctly answer this question again. You con- sider that both the secretary and the accountant are fully occupied with the duties now entrusted to them? -The accountant is very fully occupied, and there is an enormous amount of accounting work in the office,

4156. And the secretary?—I do not have much to do with the work of the secretary.

4157. (Mr. Leathes.) Is it the case that the duties of the secretary are of a more detailed and routine nature