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C.O.885

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31 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE :

Sir E. BLAKE.

4002. We had evidence from Sir Bradford Leslie that the consulting engineer gave the decision, and that the Crown Agents were not referred to?-Under the contract he is the judge; they have bound them- selves to build a railway of a certain type, and the engineer is the judge of whether they do build it of that type. That is the position.

4003. But I take it that it is within the power and the discretion of the consulting engineer, on a very important question of that sort, to refer to the Crown Agents, and the Crown Agents to refer to the Colonial Office?--If thes people do not like the decisions it is open to them to appeal; our consulting engineers say, as a matter of fact, that the local representative has ben far more reasonable than the people on this side. 4004. (Sir Ralph Moor,) The consulting engineer, who is the critic, is employed by the Crown Agents? He is employed on behalf of the Government.

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4005. By the Crown Agents?-He was mended and approved for the appointment. We are not technical people, of course.

4006. I only wanted to get it on the notes that the consulting engineer who was criticising the work was the consulting engineer appointed by the Crown Agents on behalf of the local Government ?—That is so.

4007. (Chairman.) There is a fourth matter which I have put on my notes, but which I overlooked when I suggested to you the form in which we would take your evidence, and that is with regard to the shipping. You have an arrangement. I understand, with Messrs. Free- land-They have been the shipping agents of the Crown Agents ever since the starting of the office some- where about 40 or 50 years ago. The firm has gone on and has always acted as the agents.

4008. The question put by the Committee as the best way to get your ovidence would be: Is it the best plan that you should have one agency like this with whom you have been in close touch for a number of years, or would it be a better plan to adopt either of these two alternatives. either to have the whole thing in your own hands in your own office, or to throw it open to open tender? That is a question I was asked before the Shipping Rings Commission, and there is no doubt that the present systetn is far and away the best.

4009. Will you tell us why?-Wo require someone in the City who is in touch with the shipping people, who knows them all, and they get very much better terms for us than we could get for ourselves.

4010. You might have a shipping office of your own? -Yes, but we should have to employ a man of that class, and it is far better that they should be inde- pendent people; that is to say, they are entitled to do other business and all they have to do is that they have the same position as we occupy to the Secretary of State-they have to justify to us that they have got the very best terms possible.

4011. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) They have a large out- side business have they not?-Not very large, but they have a certain amount of business; the tendency of our business, I am sorry to say, is to kill private business; there is such an enormous amount of it that it tends to kill the other business.

4012. That tends more and more to limit the Agent from being in touch with the shipping people?—No, because he is in the City and he is in contact with these people and knows them all; these sort of people in the City go in rings to a certain extent, and the shipping people are a class by themselves.

4013. (Chairman.) How did your connection with Freeland's commence ?—I cannot tell you; it was long hefore my time.

4014. It is lost in the mists of antiquity?—Yes. It was the father of the late Mr. Freeland who started the connection.

4015. (3fr. Gibson.) Have the rates paid to them been long in force?-They vary from time to time; we reduce them from time to time.

4016. The Admiralty gave us their rates: would there be any objection to having the rates paid by the Crown Agents, confidentially?—No; but you must not

compare our rates, for this reason, that the enormous bulk of our business is absolutely trumpery.

4017. (Chairman.) Why trumpery ?-It is so small; if you ship big quantities you get a very small rate for doing it, but if you are doing a quantity of small orders here, there, and everywhere, the Agent must be paid more for it. Mr. Nicholson gave evidence the other day and you saw how very small the shipping rate worked out at.

4018. The volume is enormous.It is like our own business; there is an enormous volume of work, but the individual items, as a rule, are perfectly trumpery. That was a question I had to bring before the Ship- ping Rings Commission. You have no conception of the sinaliness of many of the orders.

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4010. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You very rarely take up a whole cargo?-Hardly ever. When the Uganda Railway was being built we did; then we were able to fill up our ships with coal, and we chartered a great many ships, and it

very successfully done. That was a point brought before the Ship- ping Rings Commission. The Colonies, as a rule, want their things inmediately, and we have to get them off; we cannot collect and store them, but we'. have to send them off at the first opportunity.

4020. (Sir Ralph Moor.) You could send us the rates you actually do pay?—Yes.

4021. (Chairman.) Will you please instruct your secretary to send them to us? We will bear in mind I think my the difference you say there is?—Yes. evidence before the Shipping Rings Commission would in some respects be very instructive to the Committee, because they took me over this ground.

4022. Will you send it to us?-You have it on re- cord at the Colonial Office.

4029. (Mr. Bailey.) Does your evidence discuss the practice of other large establishments?--No, they had been taking the evidence of other people, and they asked me as to our practice.

4021. Are you aware that the Army and Navy Stores, who do a very large export business, employ their own staff for the shipping business?—I an not aware of it; but it is perfectly common to do it. I think myself that the practice of the Admiralty, the War Office, and the India Office, and ourselves, is the preferable one; that is to say, to have an inde- pendent agent. A man of our own, I think, would first of all find it extremely difficult to get in touch with the shipping people.

4025. Do you know that the Army and Navy Stores say they do not have any difficulty in that way?-I know nothing about the Army and Navy Stores.

4026. They make very large savings by employing their own men?—I daresay they may savo in that way, but I doubt whether they would make as good bar gains, and the character of our business is quite dis similar to that of the Army and Navy Stores,

4027. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You said that you from time to time revised the rates?—Yes,

4098. In carrying out that revision of the charges have you ever found out what is being charged for similar business?—When we go into these questions we ask questions and get the necessary information; from time to time I have seen people from the Admiralty and the War Office; and when the Borr War was going on that question was discussed.

4029. That is between the other departments and yourself?—Yes.

4030. You have had no opportunity of consulting with men in the open market?-The men of the open market, as a rule, do their shipping business them selves, and that, perhaps, brings me to a point. It was a most terrible mistake, forcing me to resign my directorships. I was in touch with a great many of this sort of people and I got the most valu- able information when I was in the City. The Crown Agents are expected to know everything and to do their work as well as anybody, and yet at the same time they are cut off from the means of getting that information. It was most valuable information to me, because I talked with these men, saying: "How do you

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE,

do your business?" And I got a great many ideas. I think it is a terrible pity that the Crown Agents are not treated as being outside the Government service, and the fact recognised that in order to do their work properly they ought to be in touch with these people.

4031. (Chairman.) The method you adopt between yourselves and the Freelands you think ought to be adopted between the Government and the Crown Agents; that is to say, you ought to be allowed to take other business?--No, I do not wish to take any other business.

4032. That is what your having the directorships would amount to?-No, hardly that; all it means is that it is a very valuable opportunity of acquiring information. Men in the City who know you will tell you anything if it is not put into writing; they are very chary of putting anything into writing, but they will tell you anything, and you get the most valuable information. I should like to say that from my point of view, the Treasury, the India Office, and The Crown Agents ought to have representatives on the Board of the Bank of England, and the Government will never get the best terms for their business until they have representatives on the Board of the Bank of England.

4033. Your considered opinion is that the arrange- ment you have with Messrs. Freeland works in the best way? It works excellently; they have been attacked, as the Crown Agents have bien, over and over again, but they have never had a case brought home to thein.

4034. (Mr. Gibson.) And you would not get better terms if, instead of merely revising the rates, you threw the business of shipping agent open to com- petition-No. An enormous amount of our business is tradition, custom and habit. All these Colonies want different directions, and our shipping agents, in fact, know what the Colonies want. That is one of our great difficulties; you cannot compare us with India, because India ships to three ports and we ship to all over the world, and each port probably has a different custom. Our agents have acquired an enormous amount of knowledge that is most valuable and which any fresh firm would have to learn.

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4035. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Any shipping agent would have a knowledge of shipping all over the world?— No, they generally deal with a particular class of business and a particular series of ports; they do not ship all over the world, as a rule.

4036, (Mr. Gibson.) That knowledge would be within the reach of the staff of your own office?—No, I think it is mainly in the shipping agent's office.

4037. (('hairman.) You have a shipping department? -Yes, but that is merely routine work; that is to say, they send the shipping documents to the Colonies. They receive the bills of lading and the insurance papers and then they send them, with the invoices which constitute the shipping documents, to the con- signee.

4038. Why do not Freelands do that 7-We do the checking of the invoices. The shipping papers consist of a bill of lading, an insurance paper, invoices, and inspection charges. These are all collected by us and put into a jacket and sent forward to the Colony.

4039. That is the only business done by your ship- ping department?-Yes. purely routine work. Wo

also throw upon our shipping agents the work of look- ing after the contractors to see that they keep up to date.

When we place an order we notify to the shipping agents: "Due on such a date.”

4040, (Sir Albert Spicer.) You tell them when the goods should be ready?—Yes. and it is their duty to look after them and to say to the contractor: "We are told your goods will be ready on such and such a date, will they be ready"? And if they are not ready they report to us and we then go for the contractors.

4011. (Sir Francis Moraft.) They practically notify to you when the goods are ready-They have to watch the goods and see that they are put on board properly.

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[31 July 1908.

4012. (Chairman.) The last point but one (the final point being to ask you about the staff, and any sug- gestions and amendments you may have to propose) is a point which I think must have struck every member of the Committee. When we had before us the repre- sentative of the Canadian Agency he explained to us that he did various things for Canadians who came over to this country, some social things and other commercial things, by way of assisting individual persons who came over here, and he said they did a great deal of it. He also said he thought their office was universally popular in Canada?-Yes, that is because they do not deal in stores, as he told you.

4043. That is one reason. Do you do any of these things at your office ?—No, we do nothing of that kind; it is left entirely to the Colonial Office. It has never been considered part of our functions.

4014 If a gentleman, let us say from Mauritius, comes round to your office and asks for you because he wishes to be advised about either a business matter or anything else, you would send him across to the Colonial Office ?--If he came and asked to see me I should see him and give him the best of my advice for what it was worth, as a matter of courtesy.

4045. Would you?—I see people constantly; I do not usually ask what a man wants to see me about, and I am accessible to anybody. When a man comes in very often I say to him: "I am very sorry, I cannot help you about that matter as it is one on which you must consult the Colonial Office." Or, I say to him some- times: "You can get that information from So-and- so," but it is no part of our province to do it. I think we should all do that, however; we are very accessible and do not shut ourselves up.

4046. In point of fact people do not often come, do they?—Not very often; they know that the Colonial Office is the headquarters.

4047. (3fr. Gibson.) Perhaps it would be a good thing if it were made known in the Colonies that you were so accessible?—The Colonial Office made it known to them.

4018. That refers only to officials?-We are not private agents. Quite recently on two or three occa- sions. I have had to write over to the Chairman's Secretary for seats in the House of Commons for Newfoundlanders.

4649. (Chairman.) I hope they were gratified by what they heard 7-It shows we do what we can when it comes in our way.

4050. It appears that you do all these things which tend to make people better friends when you are asked, but you are hardly ever asked?--We are hardly ever asked.

4051. Can you suggest why ?--I think it is a well understood fact that we are Government agents, agents for the Governments, and not agents for private individuals.

4052. (Mr. Gibson.) The Agents General for the Candian and other Governments are supposed to be Government agents also?-But you must remember these are constitutional Governments and I am afraid that the Colonial Office is a very stepmother sort of body to the Crown Colonies. These agents you refer to are dependent upon giving satisfaction to their own people; a man's position here would become untenablo if an important Colonial went back and said that he had not received consideration from his own agent.

4053. (Sir Albert Spicer.) You consider that the social side of life is outside your department 7--Yes.

4054. And people have not come because it came to be known that no inducement was offered 7-We have nothing to offer them; we have no power to get them this thing or that.

4055. You have not looked upon it as part of your work? It is no part of our province, and it has never been considered to be so. It was the Colonial Office that these people were to be referred to.

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